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| Feral Titan http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=17481 |
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| Author: | Steve54 [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
Feral Titan At the moment it is widely accepted that the combination of IC+MW on the Ferals barrage is too good. In my experience it is an easily negated option - it tends to do very well against players who haven't met them before but whne you get used to facing them they become fsr less effective. However I do think when you are allowed to use it as you want - getting in position to sustain fire etc it is too good. Therefore I would propose, as in LordIs doc change list, that MW is dropped from the Barrage. This keeps it as a Guard killer, which is its intended use, but reduces its effectiveness against SM - which currently it is too good against. I've tried about a dozen games with this change and IMO it is fine now in terms of weaponry, however, based on those games, I would suggest that an additional change is made - reduce points to 275. Without the MW it is not worth more than the Warhound - or more than the Death Wheel - which is now a directly alternative choice. So proposal- Remove MW Reduce to 275pts |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:28 am ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
My initial thoughts is that the Feral for Black Legion should be re-designed. Failing that, remove the MW on the template weapon and then it is fine with me. It definately serves a purpose in the Chaos list, yet now, and ruightly so, is in competition with the Death Wheel for Titan and Navy options. |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
Works for me. |
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| Author: | Honda [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
I would also support the low risk approach. There will be enough other changes to try to absorb. If this one can be handled as "low hanging" fruit, then chalk it up quickly and be done with it. I think there are probably more contentious issues out there to spend you mental calories on. |
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| Author: | dptdexys [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
Quote: (Steve54 @ Dec. 23 2009, 07:11 ) I've tried about a dozen games with this change and IMO it is fine now in terms of weaponry, however, based on those games, I would suggest that an additional change is made - reduce points to 275. Without the MW it is not worth more than the Warhound - or more than the Death Wheel - which is now a directly alternative choice. So proposal- Remove MW Reduce to 275pts I'd agree with these changes,they've worked OK in test games and 275 seems good  .
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
I'm okay with it, even without the point drop. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
-MW at 275 works for me. |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
I must be ill, all this agreement 
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| Author: | Honda [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
Quote: I must be ill, all this agreement Tis the season...
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Wed Dec 23, 2009 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
Quote: Without the MW it is not worth more than the Warhound I would disagree, as a bit of weapon guaging tells you... - The Ignore Cover template attack is still going to be better than the Vulcan Mega Bolter at infantry killing under most circumstances, due to its identical to-hit stat (4+ when shooting into cover... how often do you not shoot at infantry when they're in cover?), similar number of hits (4 units under a template is pretty typical, lower than average even), but then having ignores cover on top to negate cover saving throws makes it slightly better than the VMB. The short range mitigates this power somewhat, but as the Feral is also a Firefight Titan, it'll tend to be close to the enemy anyway, instead of hanging back like a Warhound. - The Deathstorm is pretty equal in value to the Plasma Blastgun, as you'll get at most 4 shots per game with a PBG (or roughly 3 MW hits assuming you don't do any doubling and shooting into cover), whilst you'll get at most 16 shots with the mini Gattling Blaster (or roughly 8 normal hits, assuming sometimes you double and sometimes you sustain equals out). - The battlehead grants good FF ability under all circumstances other than an involuntary Supporting Fire action (where the enemy engages a nearby formation and you didn't leave the Feral looking in the correct direction). Any other situation and the Feral is already looking the correct direction, or can turn to face the enemy. If in CC and also facing enemies in Firefight range, it becomes excellent. So in summation, it has one better gun, one roughly equal gun, and typically better Engagement abilities***. Neither of the plusses justify +25pts on their own (+10pts each, perhaps), but taken together I'd say they justify 25pts extra over the Warhound Titan. If a 300pt Feral Titan with these modified stats is looking too poor, then perhaps the other often-seen War Engine choices in the Black Legion army list also have minor points price problems... ***Technically there is a second Engagement circumstance where it cannot bring its battle head to bear, that is being charged in the rear by 6 or more units/DC (disallowing movement/countercharge)...  but then it'll be enabled to use its CC stat anyway, and so hasn't lost anything when compared to the Warhound Titan. EDIT: Holy crap I agree with Hena... I must be wrong!   |
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| Author: | Dwarf Supreme [ Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
Drop MW and I'd be happy. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
If a non-MW feral and a normal warhound were in the same list at the same price I'd take the feral pretty much every time. It's still worth more due to the extra engagement abilities. |
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| Author: | Man of kent [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
Dropping MW also leaves people a better reason to take the Decimators (a little used but excellent unit in my opinion) R> |
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| Author: | dptdexys [ Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Feral Titan |
Quote: (zombocom @ Dec. 26 2009, 01:50 ) If a non-MW feral and a normal warhound were in the same list at the same price I'd take the feral pretty much every time. It's still worth more due to the extra engagement abilities. That would depend on the list. Codex Marine, I'd favour the Warhound for it's MW Alpha strike abilities, the extra range of it's plasma Blastgun and the better anti AA that this gives it. Black Legion, I'd favour the Feral as this list has less need for the anti AA and Alpha stike abilities and it's strengths suit this list. |
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