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What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun

 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:52 am 
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In the background the nasty forces of Chaos are forever raising monuments to there gods to ensure the demons don't go poof. Take the World Eaters of Armageddon for instance.
So you have the Demonic focus or whatever that allows you to retain demons summoned. What do you think the value of being able to buy something that sat on an objective and kept all summoned demons on the table would be? It wouldn't be the same as Demonic Focus as that allows you to release at will, instead it would be once summoned the demons are here until they get killed or the formation breaks (in which case the spell is disrupted and they are hurled back into the warp). It in effect makes Demons another stand of troops, with of course a few differences. 50 points, 100 points etc etc?

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:39 am 
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So I have been reviewing this one for a few days myself (TRC realeased this idea to me a few days ago).

After having played with daemons in a force recently, I would have to say it is a a very powerful ability.

It would be hard to price as the larger the game, the more impact it has (the better it gets).

Also realise that the Daemons are summoned so do not have to make it across a table, getting shot up, to reach the enemy.

It also encourages the purchase of the greater Daemon in a larger unit as if it does not break, and has nothing to snipe (Daemonic Focus character), then it is going to be in the opponents face from the start of the battle.

I would not even consider it be cheaper that 150 points for a playtest.

Just my thoughts so far    :yay:

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:24 am 
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It would seem to have 2 effects, the first is to make demons like regular infantry present from the start of the game. The other is to have them as 'protected' infantry that can't be shot and as long as something with a pact survives they will hopefully be appearing.

The downsides are they can't be transported so something of a drawback for mechanised troops. They can't be used in the area of the battlefield threatened that turn, instead 'stuck' with the first one to summon them. They lose the surprise factor, the enemy can see them and they become predictable. You can't change from say fleshtears one turn to bloodthirsters the next as the target demands. And lastly if a formation breaks all the attached demons are killed.

Value wise it doesn't scale, but more than 100, 150 and why not just get 3 demonic focuses with their added abilities in formations for more flexible summoning and retaining anyway?

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:28 am 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 09 2009, 17:24 )

Value wise it doesn't scale, but more than 100, 150 and why not just get 3 demonic focuses with their added abilities in formations for more flexible summoning and retaining anyway?

That is the resolution I came to myself on this subject.

:shutup:

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 11:55 am 
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My initial thoughts are:

1. It should increase the cost of the daemon units themselves as now they have the ability to remain around longer

2. I'm also not quite clear on your intent of the "super focuser". Would the scenario still exist where an Icon could be transported, then the daemons summoned, then the SF takes effect?

If so, then it would still be possible to create a mechanized daemon bomb list where the daemons don't go away. I don't think opposing forces would be too thrilled over that. A lot of the risk has been removed.

3. I think the existing mechanisms for supporting daemonic troops works well as the balance between risk and reward seem balanced.

4. Big D's are pretty nasty units to deal with. I don't think we should be introducing mechanisms that make them easier to use. I suppose you could up the summoning points (e.g. 8), but then that impacts a number of lists (finalized and in progress).

I don't know, but it seems to me that this is one of those, "It ain't broke, so don't fix it" kind of things.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:15 pm 
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Its hardly a change for existing lists, rather it is meant for campaigns where they have raised the big monuments and now demons run wild with abandon.

1 - I guess that would come down to how much would a normal stand with a demons stats be?

2 - Whats the super focuser? Its basically a big icon that is part of the battlefield like a wraithgate. It means Demons cannot dematerialise and must stay until destroyed or they are destroyed by the formation breaking (disrupts the magic). If you buy a formation with a Demonic Focus in this situation its special rule supersedes this and now that formation may send demons away in the end phase if it wishes.

3 - It does. This is not a replacement.

4 - Cost wise it has I think little effect compared to getting demonic focus currently.

Its not meant to be a global change, merely something to represent certain campaigns.

Anyway, I reckon the ability is worth half of the Demonic Focus roughly so one way of costing it is for Demonic pact to cost double. Now the cost scales.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:49 pm 
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I actually see the Daemons' most important ability in being able to teleport around the board from formation to formation, so the ability to keep them all around would make them worse, not better, IMHO.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:24 pm 
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@TRC: My bad, I did not understand your intent. I think you are on the right track, then.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:55 pm 
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Well in Wh40k Daemons don't dissapear anyway. It's in my proposed alternate Daemon Summoning/Using rules too.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:18 pm 
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But 40K is a completely different game, scale wise. It is equalient to one assault in Epic. And there used to be instability tests for daemons, so the "killed when broken" idea isn't taken out of thin air.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:26 pm 
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I said nothing against the "killed when broken" rule. I know of Daemonic Instability and this is the occasion when it occurs.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:30 pm 
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Ah, OK, I interpreted it as an argument against the fact that they disappear without demonic focus.  :shutup:

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:39 pm 
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It is an argument against dissapearing. Personally Daemonic Focus shouldn't be needed to purchase but should be automatic*.

But even then Daemons should dissapear if the formation they belong to becomes broken.

*And Daemons shouldn't be voluntarily be able to be dismissed, if you summon them then you are stuck with them until they get killed or the formation becomes broken). Yes this is a weakness as it can slow down some formations.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:53 pm 
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Could I get some clarification please?

It seems like TRC was referring to a scenario specific rule, not a change to how daemons work.

BL: Are you using the same reference point, i.e. for scenario play, not the tournament list?

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:29 pm 
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Wellthis here is for Scenarios/Friendly Play so do what you want with it.

My proposal was, at the time i orginially posted it, intended as a replacement for the Tournament armylist. Naturall yit could be used for scenatio play too.

Original thread here:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 82;t=12080

The more recent proposal was in the appendix of an earlier version of the Red Corsairs army list. To quote it:

New Special Abilities:
Icon
Each unit with the Icon special ability can, at the start of its formation’s action, before the action test dice roll is made, summon 1+D3 units of Lesser Daemons from the Daemon Pool to the table. The Lesser Daemons must be set up with their base within 5cm of any unit with the Icon special ability. They may not be set up in the Zone of Control of an enemy unit or in impassable terrain.
Lesser Daemons count as part of the formation for all rules purposes as long as they remain on the battlefield. The only exception to the normal rules is when a Lesser Daemon is destroyed it does not cause a blast marker to be placed on the formation. They are otherwise counted as normal units, and are included when working out if a formation outnumbers an opponent in an assault or is broken by blast markers, etc. Note that Lesser Daemons that are killed in an assault do count towards the number of units killed by the enemy when working out modifiers to the result dice roll. If a formation loses an assault (see Core Rules 1.12.8 Loser Withdraws) you remove extra hits from the formation before it is considered broken and all the remaining Lesser Daemons are removed.
Summoned Lesser Daemons remain on the battlefield until destroyed. Lesser Daemons who are destroyed or removed can't be summoned again.

Host
A unit with the Host special ability is possesed by a Greater Daemon.  At the start of its formation’s action, before the action test dice roll is made replace the unit with the Host special ability (which now counts as destroyed but doesn't cause a Blastmarker) with a Greater Daemon from the Daemon Pool. Greater Daemons count as part of the formation for all rules purposes as long as they remain on the battlefield. The only exception to the normal rules is when Greater Daemon looses points from it's Damage Capacity or is destroyed it does not cause blast markers to be placed on the formation. They are otherwise counted as normal units, and are included when working out if a formation outnumbers an opponent in an assault or is broken by blast markers, etc. Note that Greater Daemons that are killed in an assault do count towards the number of units killed by the enemy when working out modifiers to the result dice roll. If a formation loses an assault (see Core Rules 1.12.8 Loser Withdraws) you remove extra hits from the formation before it is considered broken and all the remaining Greater Daemons are removed.
Greater Daemons remain on the battlefield until destroyed. Lesser Daemons who are destroyed or removed can't be summoned again.

Chaos Factions
Each formation with an Icon Bearer can be marked by a Chaos God.
Khorne and Slaanesh (both enjoy the savagenes/beauty of close combat): Give +1 in Engage action tests.
Tzeentch and Nurgle (both have great stamina/toughness): Gives +1 on Marshall action tests.
Chaos Glory: +1 on Rally rolls

If all Icon Bearers of the formation are destroyed the bonus is lost. Note that this idea is based on an Initiative rating of 1+. If you find it to good set the unmodfied Initiative rating to 2+ for all Chaos formations.

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