Well it's not building on them if some of them didn't come over, it's replacing them.
Anyway, ya I just caught Steve's plan on the other thread. OK, I'll tell my Chaos opponents so they can put forth their opinions.
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| BL Revisions http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=17474 |
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| Author: | Steve54 [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Firstly, hopefully the easy bit, the changes that are consensus revisions - or at least largely accepted 1 Add the Assault Company to the WE section, remove 0-2 restriction WHY Prevent BL fielding 5+ fast fearless WES 2 Raptors increase in price to 40pts WHY Raptors were too cheap in comparison to Bikes 3 Armoured Co may replace any number of Chaos Predators with Chaos Vindicators (stats as Imperial) WHY As Vindicators are no longer restricted to IW in 40k - and is an easy change to follow 4 Remove TK from Daemon Prince Weapons WHY DP was too good woth TK CC and FF especially in comparison to other similar units 5 Dreadnought Armour upgraded to 3+ WHY Following the NetEA Marine changes 6 Predator FF upgraded to 4+ WHY Following the NetEA Marine changes 7 Rename Chosen to Chaos Terminators WHY Reflecting unit name in 40k 8 Replace Chaos Rhino Stormbolters with Twin Bolters WHY Reflecting weaponry of 40k Chaos Rhino Items not included in this list shouldn't be taken as rejected but as meriting discussion of the changes suggested or of further or alternative changes |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Quote: Armoured Co may replace any number of Chaos Predators with Chaos Vindicators Personally I've only used Chaos Vindicators with the Red Corsairs points cost (35pts to add Vindicators to the formation). At an equal points cost they just don't look worth it to me. All the rest have a thumbs up from me. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Quote: (Steve54 @ Dec. 22 2009, 13:12 ) 1 Add the Assault Company to the WE section, remove 0-2 restriction Yep, definitely. Quote: 2 Raptors increase in price to 40pts Yep. Quote: 3 Armoured Co may replace any number of Chaos Predators with Chaos Vindicators (stats as Imperial) Not needed. Could be left for an Iron Warriors list, but I don't have a objection. Quote: 4 Remove TK from Daemon Prince Weapons Yep. Quote: 5 Dreadnought Armour upgraded to 3+ WHY Following the NetEA Marine changes Never convinced it was needed in the SM list, but since it is... Quote: 6 Predator FF upgraded to 4+ WHY Following the NetEA Marine changes I don't know that this necessarily needs to follow, as the pricing issues are different across the lists, but no strong objection. Quote: 7 Rename Chosen to Chaos Terminators 8 Replace Chaos Rhino Stormbolters with Twin Bolters Cosmetics, so whatever is needed. The only other thing I'd like to see is an alternate Defiler that is more in keeping with the "up close and personal" assault demon engine style. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Is this list supposed to replace the NetEA changes? If so, could you explain why you feel we need to start again from scratch with these instead of building on the former NetEA changes or LI's changedoc? The one change missing that I think still needs to be there is the Ferals points increase. Either that or they need to loose either MW or IC from their BP weapon. |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Quote: (Dave @ Dec. 22 2009, 14:22 ) Is this list supposed to replace the NetEA changes? This is building on the previous NetEA changes; Steve54 is now the official NetEA Chaos Champion. |
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| Author: | Dave [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Well it's not building on them if some of them didn't come over, it's replacing them. Anyway, ya I just caught Steve's plan on the other thread. OK, I'll tell my Chaos opponents so they can put forth their opinions. |
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| Author: | Mephiston [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
I think the other stuff that may (or may not) cause more debate will get their own threads. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
As I understand it Steve will deal with the other NetEA changes that have been playtested on a case-by-case basis... this list is just a list of non-contentious changes that can be immediately ratified. Personally I think the majority of changes in there (the BL playtest document) were good ones, though some changes could be handled better (Obliterators, for instance). |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
@Steve: I agree to all this points. But i have the same objections as E&C considering the points cost of Chaos Vindicators. Also i don't think the Chaos Predator needs FF4+. It already replaces the Autocannon for a Twin Lascannon. But followign 40k fluff the Chaos Predator should have a Autocannon and two Lascannons. The Twin Lascannon turret was invented by the Space Wolves way afzer the Horus Heresy. To my understanding this variant was only later adopted (or kept as war bounty) by the Chaos forces ands thus should be either rare or not included in this list. Other issues also need adressing: Aircrafts and Obliterators. But i agree that these are more difficult to solve. |
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| Author: | Dwarf Supreme [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Quote: (Dave @ Dec. 22 2009, 09:22 ) The one change missing that I think still needs to be there is the Ferals points increase. Either that or they need to loose either MW or IC from their BP weapon. Agreed. |
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Quote: (Steve54 @ Dec. 22 2009, 13:12 ) Firstly, hopefully the easy bit, the changes that are consensus revisions - or at least largely accepted Come on Steve, its Tac-coms, surely we should argue it?  Quote: Add the Assault Company to the WE section, remove 0-2 restriction Will you be looking at their internal balance as well? And on a separate note will you be trying to get rid of some of the 0-x limitations as well that don't scale? Quote: 2 Raptors increase in price to 40pts WHY Raptors were too cheap in comparison to Bikes Fairy snuff. Though whats the overall policy, should it be stats or cost changes? The alternative is making their FF5+ to more differentiate them from bikes? Quote: 3 Armoured Co may replace any number of Chaos Predators with Chaos Vindicators (stats as Imperial) Why bother? Then again it doesn't seem to matter either way. Can't see anyone taking them for 50 points each though (they are 50 points for marines as upgrades and they have ATSKNF). Quote: 5 Dreadnought Armour upgraded to 3+ It wasn't needed there. Here the Dred seems fine, is their a problem with the unit? Quote: 6 Predator FF upgraded to 4+ Again why? They don't seem to be an underused option. Surely if any changes are made they should be re-gunned to match their in theory historical armament of autocannon and 2 lascannon. A further argument against the stats change is the weapon fit doesn't match the predator destructor which is the only one to change in the marine list (a separate issue is that in retrospect it shouldn't have happened as it weaken the vindy more, instead it should have been a separate 250 point formation from the annihilator). Quote: 7 Rename Chosen to Chaos Terminators Going to make Forlorn hope marines chosen with a separate unit box with scout (following the example of the World Eater list)? Quote: 8 Replace Chaos Rhino Stormbolters with Twin Bolters This worth it? There are many such discrepancies in Epic. |
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| Author: | Steve54 [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 22 2009, 18:19 ) Quote: (Steve54 @ Dec. 22 2009, 13:12 ) Firstly, hopefully the easy bit, the changes that are consensus revisions - or at least largely accepted Come on Steve, its Tac-coms, surely we should argue it? Quote: Add the Assault Company to the WE section, remove 0-2 restriction Will you be looking at their internal balance as well? And on a separate note will you be trying to get rid of some of the 0-x limitations as well that don't scale? Quote: 2 Raptors increase in price to 40pts WHY Raptors were too cheap in comparison to Bikes Fairy snuff. Though whats the overall policy, should it be stats or cost changes? The alternative is making their FF5+ to more differentiate them from bikes? Quote: 3 Armoured Co may replace any number of Chaos Predators with Chaos Vindicators (stats as Imperial) Why bother? Then again it doesn't seem to matter either way. Can't see anyone taking them for 50 points each though (they are 50 points for marines as upgrades and they have ATSKNF). Quote: 5 Dreadnought Armour upgraded to 3+ It wasn't needed there. Here the Dred seems fine, is their a problem with the unit? Quote: 6 Predator FF upgraded to 4+ Again why? They don't seem to be an underused option. Surely if any changes are made they should be re-gunned to match their in theory historical armament of autocannon and 2 lascannon. A further argument against the stats change is the weapon fit doesn't match the predator destructor which is the only one to change in the marine list (a separate issue is that in retrospect it shouldn't have happened as it weaken the vindy more, instead it should have been a separate 250 point formation from the annihilator). Quote: 7 Rename Chosen to Chaos Terminators Going to make Forlorn hope marines chosen with a separate unit box with scout (following the example of the World Eater list)? Quote: 8 Replace Chaos Rhino Stormbolters with Twin Bolters This worth it? There are many such discrepancies in Epic. Assault Co - I wasn't aware there were internal issues, regarding 0-x limitations I know they aren't ideal but will approach them case-by-case. I odn't think wholesale changes purely t remove restrictions is warranted. Raptors - I'm just following the proposed revisions which I hadn't seen any dissent towards. Overall policy is to do what fits the unit best - some units points changes others stats changes. Vindis - I thought in large numbers they mightbe interesting. I think they either need to be a straight swap for Preds or left out as its going to result in a messy list otherwise. Dreads - Again just matching up with SM - which seems logical, and following what I thought was a widely accepted change Preds - I think I'll include these in the discussion threads as there seems to be differing views. Chosen - At the moment I wasn't intending to as I viewed the Forlorn Hope as a unproblematic formation - and there are enough actual problems to work through. Rhinos - purely cosmetic -following the BL changes proposal |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Quote: Quote: 8 Replace Chaos Rhino Stormbolters with Twin Bolters This worth it? There are many such discrepancies in Epic. Ohno! This would severely unbalance the list!!!11!11!oneoneeleven!   Seriously what's wrong to change the units armamend to what they ACTUALLY are armed with? It isn't so that with this name change the Chaos Rhinos stats would change. |
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| Author: | AxelFendersson [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Quote: (Steve54 @ Dec. 22 2009, 18:40 ) Chosen - At the moment I wasn't intending to as I viewed the Forlorn Hope as a unproblematic formation - and there are enough actual problems to work through. I don't think the suggestion was to make any mechanical changes. Just to re-name the units to 'Chosen' and to give them their own datafax. |
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| Author: | Apocolocyntosis [ Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | BL Revisions |
Quote: (BlackLegion @ Dec. 22 2009, 18:41 ) Quote: Quote: 8 Replace Chaos Rhino Stormbolters with Twin Bolters This worth it? There are many such discrepancies in Epic. Also wouldn't many BL rhinos be pre-heresy rhinos with twin bolter configuration anyway? |
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