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Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00

 Post subject: Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:11 pm 
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BlackLegion has asked for a 'Chaos Guard' army list in the vein of the Blood Pact for a proposed supplement project.

Here's what I came with.

It uses all the standard Chaos Summoning rules etc, with an interesting tweak. Formations cannot buy the 'Daemonic Pact' ability, instead that ability is possessed by a unit, the Thaumaturge Coven unit (five human sorcerers on a base).

Thus if all the Thaumaturge units in a formation are killed, the formation can no longer summon daemons. You can also see clearly how many Daemons a formation can summon at any time because unlike the summoning characters of the L&TD/CSM army lists they are obvious units in their own right.

I also rounded off the purchasing of Lesser Daemons into blocks of 5 at 75pts, because this list has no other non-25pt unit/formation choices.

A couple of variant weapon systems appear for the Titans.

Version 1.00:


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Last edited by Evil and Chaos on Thu Apr 08, 2010 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:23 pm 
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Looking good.
Btw The Red Corsairs have the same Warlord Titan configuration. I named it "Inferno Weapon Configuration".
Are the weapons of the Stalk Tank really called Plulse Lasers? The only novel i read which featured them was Double Eagle in german and there they talk about Lascannons.

The Bondsman Commander has no Missile Launcher?

The Thaumaturg Coven is a nice idea. I like it :)

And i'm not that fond of the name. :;):  Red Bucaneers sounds more like a pirate warband but is odd too.
Hmm Red/Crimson Reavers? Red/Crimson Marauders?




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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:31 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Sep. 18 2009, 21:23 )

Are the weapons of the Stalk Tank really called Plulse Lasers? The only novel i read which featured them was Double Eagle in german and there they talk about Lascannons.

Lexicanum references "double pulse-lasers in mini-turrets". I didn't check the book directly, but I'd suggest caution in taking too much salt from the German translation.

I shall rename them to twin multi-lasers I think. Abnett often mixes up names.

Quote: 

Btw The Red Corsairs have the same Warlord Titan configuration. I named it "Inferno Weapon Configuration".

You would like the same name here?

Quote: 

The Bondsman Commander has no Missile Launcher?

Typo, I shall correct it.


Quote: 

i'm not that fond of the name. :;):  Red Bucaneers sounds more like a pirate warband but is odd too.
Hmm Red/Crimson Reavers? Red/Crimson Marauders?


Well I went with Crimson because it means Red, and Bondsmen to imply that they are in sworn service to the Red Corsairs.




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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:39 pm 
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@Stalk Tank wepons: Yes german translations are usually crap  :laugh:

@Titan: Well i like to have things consisent. And it is better to name a particular weapons configuration with an universally name than to name it after some special event.

@Name: Oh i immediately thought about Blood (= Crimson) Pact (= Bond) and so thought that the name is only a placeholder.... :;):
But it would be a pain in the rectal regions if i would translate the name in german. "Karmesinrote Bündern" just sounds silly for german ears  :p
But thats only me. If you like the name and the majority then more power to you  :D

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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:41 pm 
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Quote: 

@Name: Oh i immediately thought about Blood (= Crimson) Pact (= Bond) and so thought that the name is only a placeholder.... :;):

Well it is intended to be basically the same thing.  :laugh:

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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:45 pm 
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And this is good. It is good if people could use this list as a stand-in for the Blood Pact :)
But i only lnow about them that they are Khorne Traitor Guard and use the Stalk Tank..nothing else....I don't like the Gaunts Ghosts novels i must admit. Only read the first one and the end spoiled everything for me (the Eisenhorn novels too for the same reason. Far to rushed endings)

Edit: Have you spoken with firestorm40k? He had some nice ideas too and i pointed him in your direction.




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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:20 am 
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I don't know how much my ideas will help with this list, seeing as E&C has already had a very effective stab at it.  I'll repeat my previous contribution, bearing in mind I was thinking in terms of how the current 40k IG Codex could be adapted to make Renegade Guard:

Quote: 

I'm in favour of this list.  Not quite L&tD, which is kind of 'Cultist/Mutant Rabble with Renegade Guard Allies'.

A proper Renegade army, with all the special skills and training that entails, with serious Chaos leanings, a la the Blood Pact is what I've currently got a hankering for.  Given that Guard forces fled with the Corsairs in to the Maelstrom, they will likely be as curropted by Chaos as the Red Corsairs are.  This gives scope for a proper Renegade army that isn't just rabble, with additional Daemon Engine and daemonic units, if neccessary.

I've been thinking of ways in which the current 40k Codex would be adapted for doing this sort of army, without the daemonic elements anyway - thinking of how I might take allies for my 40k Chaos Marine army.

To start with, certain units would be off limits, or only available in limited numbers, representing that when an army turns rogue they lose the support of the Munitorum to replenish their vehicles and supplies.  But it doesn't stop them turning to darker forces to supply these...

So, I would drop Valkyries from the list, and make all tanks a 0-1 choice, as would Storm Troopers and Ogryns.

Then it's a case of 'count-as' units.  Commissars would be the Enforcers or Dictators that keep the forces doing the will of the dark gods.  Priests would be fanatical, rabid zealots (nothing new there!), only to the dark gods.  Conscript PLatoons would be Cultist mobs, the general citizenry that have grabbed/looted small arms and are fighting as part of the larger army.  And so on, and so forth.

Some units would need weapons options changing, e.g. make Cultists (conscripts) equipped with CCW, then additional points for Laspistols or Lasguns.  Ogryns would be limited in how many Ripper Guns the sqquad can take, representing them having broken down or run out of ammo long since.

So, I'm just throwing these ideas out there, whilst they're to do with the current 40k Guard Codex, I hope that something might prvide a seed of an idea that contributes to the Traitor Guard list.

Having looked at v.1.00 that E&C has come up with, I can't see much that I would change/alter, apart from one thing that grabs me straight away:

Why would this army only have Ragnaroks?  I think they may still have Leman Russes, granted they would be rare, so why not allow them to use a mix in their armour formation?

Also, would they have Daemon Princes?  I know there's no precedent that says that a Traitor Guard leader couldn't ascend to Daemonhood, it seems more likely that, in the universe of the 41st millennium, Marines would be more likely to survive long enough to acheive what is neccessary for this to happen.  So perhaps there's a case to keep the DP, but make it 0-1..?

Otherwise, I can't see anything I'd do too differently - the Thaumaturge Coven is such a clever idea it needs several smileys  :cool:  :D  :flyboy:  :agree:  In fact I think it'd be worth putting in the 40k version of a renegade guard list, in lieu of Battle Psykers...

Speaking of which, do you think there's space for a sort of 'Rogue Alpha Psyker', either as an upgrade for a commander, or as a unit to add to a formation?

In terms of stats, I've never seen the 40k rules for a Stalk Tank, I always imaginesd they were just a slightly larger version of a Sentinel, more heavily armed - so wouldn't it be in that case an LV like the Sentinel?

Finally, I could actually play test this list, as I have a L&tD force I made using Exodus Wars minis, plus various assorted Guard & Chaos Marine stuff, so I could cobble together a decent force of this.

My only problem - no one to test it against...  :whistle:


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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:39 am 
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Quote: 

Why would this army only have Ragnaroks?  I think they may still have Leman Russes, granted they would be rare, so why not allow them to use a mix in their armour formation?

The Blood Pact tanks are described as not being as good as Leman Russ tanks, normally, so the Ragnarok is a good tank to use I reckon.

Full companies of Ragnaroks haven't been seen before, either, IIRC.

Quote: 

Also, would they have Daemon Princes?  I know there's no precedent that says that a Traitor Guard leader couldn't ascend to Daemonhood, it seems more likely that, in the universe of the 41st millennium, Marines would be more likely to survive long enough to acheive what is neccessary for this to happen.  So perhaps there's a case to keep the DP, but make it 0-1..?

Non-Astartes Daemon Princes appear quite often (there's at least two in the Vraks books alone).

Quote: 

Otherwise, I can't see anything I'd do too differently - the Thaumaturge Coven is such a clever idea it needs several smileys  :cool:  :D  :flyboy:  :agree:

Thank you. :-)

I think at a stroke it elegantly does a lot to both simplify the Daemon Summoning process (summoning is clearly WYSIWYG, instead of dependent on various characters and upgrades), and also make it more characterful (you can degrade or even entirely remove an enemy formation's summoning capacity by killing the Thaumaturge units).

Quote: 

Speaking of which, do you think there's space for a sort of 'Rogue Alpha Psyker', either as an upgrade for a commander, or as a unit to add to a formation?

That's a cool idea, I'll see about putting a more powerful Rogue Psyker in there.

Quote: 

In terms of stats, I've never seen the 40k rules for a Stalk Tank, I always imaginesd they were just a slightly larger version of a Sentinel, more heavily armed - so wouldn't it be in that case an LV like the Sentinel?

They seem to be more on the order of a small tank than a large sentinel, in the books, with multiple weapon blisters and requiring missile launchers to destroy.

Quote: 

Finally, I could actually play test this list, as I have a L&tD force I made using Exodus Wars minis, plus various assorted Guard & Chaos Marine stuff, so I could cobble together a decent force of this.
:agree:

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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:48 am 
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I agree that they should have Russ's. They only "recently" turned traitor and I'm sure they raid enough to re-supply. With that thought I would also think they would have access to most SHT still in large numbers to have full company sizes. Shadowsword, Stormblade etc.

Also why don't they have space ship option? They had to get there somehow right? And if they are a organized traitor guard unit then I would assume they would have some ships and/or be part of a larger fleet.

Agree Demon Prince should be cut or limited for the same reasons.

As for the Red Corsairs Retinue, is it 8 units of marines and 1 lord unit totaling 9 units? Or 7 marines and 1 lord unit totaling 8 units? If its the former than your short a rhino.

EDIT: I see E&C has already commented on some of the above mentioned comments.




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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:00 am 
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Quote: (Angel_of_Caliban @ Sep. 21 2009, 10:48 )

I agree that they should have Russ's. They only "recently" turned traitor and I'm sure they raid enough to re-supply.

As I noted above, the list is supposed to be similar to the Blood Pact from Dan Abnett's books, and their tanks are not as good as Leman Russes.

The Ragnarok seems to fit that description (slower, less secondary guns, worse range on the main gun).

Quote: 

With that thought I would also think they would have access to most SHT still in large numbers to have full company sizes. Shadowsword, Stormblade etc.

I see the Super Heavy Tank company as more notable in the posession of armies like the Steel Legion or Tank Regiments.

Most IG Regiments will only be able to call on 3-6 Super-Heavy Tanks at most, which would not be numerous enough to field in companies, but instead would be fielded singly.

And again, the Blood Pact are seen in posession of SHT's (normally Baneblades), but only ever in singles, AFAIK.

Quote: 

Also why don't they have space ship option? They had to get there somehow right? And if they are a organized traitor guard unit then I would assume they would have some ships and/or be part of a larger fleet.

Makes sense, they shall get space-support.

Quote: 

As for the Red Corsairs Retinue, is it 8 units of marines and 1 lord unit totaling 9 units? Or 7 marines and 1 lord unit totaling 8 units? If its the former than your short a rhino.

The Lord is not a unit, but a Character upgrade.

Therefore it is 8 CSM units, one CSM Lord Character, and four Rhinos.

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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:10 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 21 2009, 03:00 )

Quote: 

Also why don't they have space ship option? They had to get there somehow right? And if they are a organized traitor guard unit then I would assume they would have some ships and/or be part of a larger fleet.

Makes sense, they shall get space-support.

At least some of my ramblings made a difference.  :laugh:

As for SHT company I see your point however wouldn't it be more just Baneblade and maybe Shadowswords then? But even limiting the size I think there should be more of a variety, at least Baneblade, Shadowsword and Stormsword. Eh?

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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:39 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 21 2009, 11:00 )

Quote: (Angel_of_Caliban @ Sep. 21 2009, 10:48 )

I agree that they should have Russ's. They only "recently" turned traitor and I'm sure they raid enough to re-supply.

As I noted above, the list is supposed to be similar to the Blood Pact from Dan Abnett's books, and their tanks are not as good as Leman Russes.

The Ragnarok seems to fit that description (slower, less secondary guns, worse range on the main gun).

I can appreciate both lines of logic here.

Let me throw in another suggestion that might create a happy medium:

How about allong the armour formation to take 1-3 Leman Russ Tanks as an upgrade, in exchange for the same number of Ragnaroks?

I think this fits in with all three of our lines of thinking, and also meets a practical consideration that some players - and I certainly include myself in this, being honest - maybe faced with:

Having more Leman Russes than Ragnaroks, and the cost of having to buy more Ragnaroks!

I've got 6 Ragnaroks in my L&tD force, using as Leman Russes with the rationale that they're PDF variants that have been 'acquired' by the traitors.

As I don't have the finances to go and buy another 3 Ragnaroks, it'd be easier for me to use 3 Leman Russes from my Guard army...


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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:48 am 
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Quote: 

I've got 6 Ragnaroks in my L&tD force, using as Leman Russes with the rationale that they're PDF variants that have been 'acquired' by the traitors.


So if you're happy to use Counts-As one way (Ragnaroks counting as Leman Russ), what's to stop you using Counts-As in the other direction?

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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:03 pm 
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Ha!  :laugh:  Yes, I was aware of this counter-argument, even as I wrote it...

The simple answer is I generally like to take a model that it what it is...

Yes, I know, therefore I shouldn't be using Ragnaroks as Russes in my L&tD...  :sulk:  :disagree:

For the purposes of play testing I'll probably proxy Demolishers as the other 3 Ragnaroks I need.

But this doesn't detract from arguments that these renegade forces would have access to Russes, even if in very limited numbers.

It could be that, if added, after playtesting we decide that this doesn't work, but it surely if enough people are in favour of it to begin with it's worth a try???  :whistle:


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 Post subject: "Crimson Bondsmen" Army List v1.00
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:10 pm 
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E&C

I know you are trying to keep to the 25 point mark, however that Chaos Marine squad with a lord and 4 Rhino is quite cheap.

Effectively you have given them a 15 point discount. Why not go 10 points up and price the unit at 325 points rather than give the unit 1.5 'free' Rhinos?

That 25 points can really be a decider sometimes...

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