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Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=16212		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
Here is the place for any replies to any feedback on the BL Chaos changes thread.
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 26 Jul. 2009, 20:07 )

Following what dobbsy said its based on (large amounts of) generic aircraft expereince and half a game with them on vassel - 3 formations. Easily chopped up the thunderbolts and proceeded to strafe the ground with wild abandon. Range 30cm meant they weren't touched by AA.


Buuuuttttt...
I notice in the playtest changes sheet they are range 15cm! This is something of a difference! :) So which version is correct (I certainly don't remember people saying they should be range 30?)?

(Incidentally I still prefer twin reapers with ap3+/at5+/aa4+ and no armour save to make them seem like very light fighters - cram in 3 for 150 points, but this is due to an irrational desire for fighter swarms! Its not actually that necessary here - the 200 price point is ok when the banelord is 200 points.)


Yes, they should be range 15cm for the exact reasons you describe - with range 30cm they'll avoid aircraft defensive fire with ease. Note that they're also "forward arc" not "fixed forward" which is the tradeoff - they're harder to sneak up on themselves.

We had a lot of discussion about these guys before I made the document. It's actually interesting that you tried them out with range 30cm, that makes me feel better about them being range 15cm - but "half a game" could be more extensively tested.  :tongue:
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
I have extensively tested them, and found them to be a bit too good.
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
At 2x 15cm AA5+, correct? Would dropping them down to "Armour -" be sufficient in your opinion to bring them in line with their points? In a typical army list, how many do you field (or how many would you field if you had a unlimited model collection!)?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
I take a single formation to every game. With armour - that wouldn't change, so it couldn't hurt to downgrade them in that manner, let's put it that way.


More concerning to me are the fighter bombers, which as I said in the other thread are not worth their points.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:55 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
I have used these fighter bombers with very similar stats some months ago and they struck me as alright. Admittedly I was playing against an Imperial guard army and the weapons are ideal to kill mechanised troops. With better firepower than thunderbolts (my eternal benchmark), the ability to intercept if needs dictate (with a 30cm AA3+ shot) with a save twice as good as normal fighters. Certainly I would take them at 200 if I could over thunderbolts :)

So is it instead why not go for the dedicated bomber instead of the FB, or the fighters instead of the FB?

Fighters to FB the F's have 6xAP4+/AP6+ vs FB's 2bp IC (with the FB's having a stand off attack if needed) AP4+, AT4+. Seems pretty similar.

Somethign that wouldn't affect the points is maybe make the FB forward arc for its lascannon - would account for the range drop and give it a small boost?

Combined with no save for the figthers - That enough to separate them out? Or should the ground attack of the fighters be reduced? Go for a twin weapon? Possible stat lines could be
30cm AP3+/AT5+/AA3+ fixed forward
30cm AP3+/AT5+/AA4+ forward arc
15cm AP3+/AT5+/AA3+ forward arc
15cm AP3+/AT5+/AA4+ 360'
Probably re-cost as well to 150 or so with the above.

Maybe try first though no save for F's and 180' for fb's AA?
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
Hmm why has the Hell Talon Fighter-bomber Armour 5+? Its armour values in Wh40k isn't better than any other aircraft (with the exeption of the Thunderhawk).
What was the reason for this?
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
It is half way between being a fighter and a bomber? :)
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
As Ork Fighta Bommers with their 6+ save?  :laugh:
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
Nah they are Orks in fighters who just want to be bombers :)
More accurately Fighter bomber refers to ground attack manoverability (with fighters being better than fighter bombers) rather than mission role or tactics. So the Hell wahtsname is actualy tactically a fighter bomber :)
Author:  Onyx [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:40 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
I believe BL was talking about the Armour save, not Fighter Bomber classification...
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
Ferals - with MW+IC Ferals were comparable with warhounds ...Without MW they lose their effectiveness

Without MW they effectively have an Inferno Gun (has exactly the same stats), a better Vulcan Megabolter (a point of AT generally being worth more than a point of AP) and slightly superior Firefight ability (unless looking the wrong way).

Such a configuration would cost 275pts, or possibly 300pts (considering the small boosts in Firefight and AT ability) in the AMTL army list.

A Feral configuration Warhound would be 325pts or more.

Stalker - I still don't understand this inclusion ... especially when AA was not a huge issue before.
What about all the complaints about the Obliterators being too good at AA (as well as too good at a lot of things...)?

Even you seemingly conceed that Obliterators are too good in the Black Legion list, as you favour placing stricter limits on how many you can use per formation... so that's where this unit came from, as a method of finding an AA unit to replace the downgraded Obliterator.


Personally I think the Obliterator could go down to a single AA shot, in order to preserve part of its original role, whilst co-existing with the Stalker & Desecrator.
Author:  Steve54 [ Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:09 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
The vast majority of complaints about the oblits were concerning their inclusion with terminators - a fearless RA flak unit on the opponents baseline.

I don't understand how 3x AA5+ at 45cm is overpowered?  1 shot more than a hydra for more points

I always found that it is good at defending its own unit but difficult to maintain wider coverage, especially given its lack of speed. Hydras, hunters and firestorms all provide similar coverage for similar points with no negatives to their formation.

How is it more difficult to suppress than a hydra in a tank or mech co? More difficult to kill Yes but not suppress. If you make it difficult to kill by daemon shielding it in cover then you end up throwing 900ish points as a purely defensive measure (2 retinues to get decent coverage) which will ensure you lose the game elsewhere. Orks+IG can again hide their flak like this for less cost.

Regarding the fearless issues - which was the problem that was largely raised, I don't see that is more of an issue than any other army that can get a fearless RA unit - IG, Eldar.
The only difference is they can teleport.
However others seemed to have a problem with this which is why I favoured a 0-1 limit as an upgrade
Author:  Steve54 [ Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
Feral - by your points that adds up - though I think the AP/AT balance is flawed. By 200+ games with BL then the MW Feral was comparable to a warhound and fine at 300 for what it can do if allowed to do exactly what you want it to do, the non-MW is worth, if anything, less than a warhound
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:25 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion Playtest Feedback Discussion
Quote: (Steve54 @ 31 Jul. 2009, 11:09 )

I don't understand how 3x AA5+ at 45cm is overpowered?  1 shot more than a hydra for more points

For 25pts extra you get:


- Armour to 4+ reinforced instead of 6+.
- Gains Thick Rear Armour
- Gains Teleport
- Gains An extra AA shot
- Gains Fearless
- Firefight goes from 5+ to 2+
- Close Combat goes from 6+ to 3+
- Gains Invulnerable save
- Strategy Rating goes from 2 to 4
- Gains infantry status, meaning most fire at it will generally be at -1 to-hit.


All that, for only 25pts, is simply not priced correctly, thus, loads of complaints.
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