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| Project Juggernaut http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=16145 |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
Hi All I am opening up this discussion to attempt to change the juggernaut stats as they currently stand as follows: Cost: 200 points for 4 Frequency: 2 for every Core formation Type: Infantry Speed: 20cm Armour: 3+ CC: 3+ FF: 5+ Small Arms (15cm), Assault Weapons Notes: Fearless, Mounted, Infiltrator Now the Juggernaut on a charge is almost unstoppable, and their initial attack is supposed to be devastating. They are also a Daemon, cumbersome and usually only awarded to champions or a squad that has proved themselves. I am sure you will all agree that the stats above are pretty lack-luster in this regard. Also, the infiltrator rule appears to be in there to assist the charge, yet the whole aspect of a jugger is totally against the 'spirit' of the rule as I cannot imagine these guys tip-toeing through a forest. So taking all the above into consideration, I would like some feedback on this proposed change: Cost: ? Frequency: 0-1  or 0-2 Type: Light Vehicle (LV) Speed: 25cm Armour: 3+ CC: 3+ FF: 6+ Small Arms (15cm), Assault Weapons Notes: +1A MW, Fearless, Mounted, Invulnerable Save, On a charge action, juggernauts gain the Barge ability and count as a DC1 for barge purposes Here are the justifications for the above: Cost: Help Please!! Type: LV - should be able to be shot at by both AP and AT - also cannot claim cover bonus in assault Speed: Because they are that fast FF: There should be no reason why they are different to berserkers in this regard +1A MW : This represents the jugger assault in the fluff which appears to hasve been lost Invulnerable Save: Because they are Daemons Barge ability: once again, represents the jugger charge in the fluff which appears to hasve been lost So thoughts people and what price would you place on a unit of 4 of these guys? Thanks in advance Note: The above is taking Blood Rage to effect the whole army list and the ruling would be on a failed activation, the unit may only charge or shoot. Nice and simple and takes away the ability to remove blast markers without having to create new unit abilities or force a move which goes against the principle of the Epic rules. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
The don't need to be Mounted if they are LVs. Should they be Walker? I can see them crashing through things and continuing on. Infiltrator has been used for lots of units to represent a full out, non-tactical charge. It's not so much sneaking through the woods as pounding at full speed through the enemy's front line, knocking people out of the way in your eagerness to drive as far into the enemy's position as possible. A slightly odd terminology is no different than using "teleport" for "super-hidey ambush" or "walker" for "these guys can drive across a tight wire". I'd say keep it. Stat-wise, those are comparable to Terminators with faster speed and Fearless but without ranged fire/FF. I'd put them in the 60-point range or a bit more, maybe start with 250 for 4. I would round that up some with Infiltrate. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
I agree that they should be Walkers and infiltrators. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
Quote: (nealhunt @ 14 Jul. 2009, 13:50 ) I'd say keep it. Hi Neal Thanks for 'coming to the party'. I like the idea of walker and taking out mounted so I will do that. Also thanks for your input into the points value. In regards to Infiltrator, they would also gain the double move on the charge which may make them too good in this regard. Also the ablity to move past units (rather than barge them) also seems to be quite broken for such a unit. Was the above factored into your initial thoughts with infiltrator? |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
Quote: (Hena @ 14 Jul. 2009, 13:57 ) What is that +1MW in notes? Shouldn't it be assault weapon with +1EA MW instead? CC might be worthwhile to be 4+ if it has two attacks of which one is MW. If infiltrate, don't make the speed more than 20. 50cm charge range is a bit too good. Sorry It should be Assault Weapon +1EA MW In regards to the 4+, should that then not effect the points value to be lower in value? The CC3+ is making them more like terminators that cannot teleport in a list (World Eater) that has a 0-1 restriction on the terminator unit. Agree on the 50cm. It IS too good as a charge - better than nids! I would also add that the old stats of 20cm move +infiltrator has a larger charge range than bikers which I believe should not be the case. Open to discussions however. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
Oh and no 'barge' Special rule please. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
Quote: (frogbear @ 14 Jul. 2009, 13:56 ) In regards to Infiltrator, they would also gain the double move on the charge which may make them too good in this regard. Also the ablity to move past units (rather than barge them) also seems to be quite broken for such a unit. Like Hena says, they would need to drop to 20cm move with Infiltrate. Experinece with the Feral Ork Boarboyz at 25cm/50cm showed that a 50cm CC charge is pretty powerful by its nature. I think they could also work at 4+CC, especially if you wanted to get a per-unit cost down so you could reasonably put more on the board. 2x4+, with one of them MW would still put them at substantially more powerful than normal Berzerkers (about 50% more CC damage than Berzerkers). I think you need to be careful about trying to make them as elite and powerful as the fluff makes them. Everything in the fiction is exaggerated. If you make them as elite as the background you may have a hard time making them work. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
Cool I will come back to this after some sleep Cheers.. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
Definately not in favour of a "barge" special rule. Infiltrators does most of the same job. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
Ok So after the discussions above, I have fixed the original idea to the below stats. Do people believe this is a better representation of what the Juggers should look like on a table? Cost: 250 points for a squad of 4 Frequency: Help Please!! Type: Light Vehicle (LV) Speed: 20cm Armour: 3+ CC: 4+ FF: 6+ Weapons Bolt Pistols Small Arms (15cm), Khornate Chainaxes Assault Weapons Juggernaut Bulk Assault Weapon +1A MW Notes: Fearless, Walker, Infiltrator, Invulnerable Save, Any assistance on the frequency within a list? |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Project Juggernaut |
Thanks Hena I am looking at taking them now with the following stats under the World Eater 1.1 rule set: ------------------------------------ Cost: 80 points per stand Squad: 4-8 stands per retinue Frequency: 0-2 Type: Light Vehicle (LV) Speed: 20cm Armour: 3+ CC: 4+ FF: 6+ Weapons  Bolt Pistols     Small Arms (15cm),  Khornate Chainaxes  Assault Weapon  Juggernaut Bulk    Assault Weapon     +1A MW Notes: Fearless, Walker, Infiltrator, Invulnerable Save, Berserk ------------------------------------- Thank you all for your assistance so far with this one. Anyone see any major concerns with the above unit? |
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