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World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

frogbear

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:22 am

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Decided to open up another thread as the Blood Rage thread appears to have gone beyond the title which in itself has been discussed and established for version 1.1.

The changes that I have come across for version 1.1 from asking questions from the AC and Black Legion appear below as well as some findings from an initial playtest.

Possible immediate changes to be added to World Eaters 1.1

Banelord
- Doomfist to include: or (base contact) Assault weapon Extra Attacks (+2), TitanKiller (D3)

Havoc Missile Rack, include Forward Arc
Hellstrike Cannon, include Forward Arc
Doomfist, include Forward Arc

Daemon Assault Engines
Include Fearless

World Eater Retinue
Includes Bloodlord in retinue

Project Proposals

Juggernauts
Cost: 400 points
Squad: 6 stands
Frequency: 0-2 (? Necessary?)
Type: Light Vehicle (LV)
Speed: 20cm
Armour: 3+
CC: 4+
FF: 6+
Weapons
Bolt Pistols Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Small Arms (15cm),
Khornate Chainaxes Ã‚Â Assault Weapon
Juggernaut Bulk Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Assault Weapon Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â Ã‚Â +1A MW
Notes: Fearless, Walker, Infiltrator, Invulnerable Save, Berserk

Bloodlord: Daemon Weapon, Base Contact, Assault Weapon, MW EA+2
Currently a free option as part of a retinue. Is it too good for no cost or is it already factored into the cost?

Daemon Prince: Currently in World Eaters v1.1
- Buy Warlord (50 points), replace a Bloodlord. Gain Supreme Commander.
- Upgrade to Daemon Prince (50 points). MW,TK(1) EA +3 in place of MW EA+2

Play tested as Buy Warlord (50 points) & Upgrade to Daemon Prince (+25 points) Ã¢â‚¬â€œ found to be too cheap.

-------------------------------------
So that is just after 1 playtest, so I am sure there will be more to add. I would welcome some discussion at this point in regards to any of the above or for anything I have missed to assist the AC with the development of this list.

Next playtest will be next Thursday with any luck. Hoping to go into that game with a litle more clarrity on the list to make my next force up.

Thanks in advance

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frogbear

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:13 am

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Another observation:

This one was brought up by my opponent in the last game.

Current World Eater list v1.1 allows one to take 1/3 Titan Formations and another 1/3 Chaos Navy. In effect, that means that the World Eater list can take 2/3 of the force in Titans and Air Support.

Other armies only allow up to a 1/3 points to be taken from Allies. Is this an oversight?

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Dobbsy

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:27 am

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Banelord
- Doomfist to include: or (base contact) Assault weapon Extra Attacks (+2), TitanKiller (D3)

Sounds fair to me.

Havoc Missile Rack, include Forward Arc
Hellstrike Cannon, include Forward Arc
Doomfist, include Forward Arc
Yep again sounds fair enough.

Daemon Assault Engines
Include Fearless
Yep no worries- I think that was a typo - can't remember removing anyway.

World Eater Retinue
Includes Bloodlord in retinue
I already mentioned that to you in the other thread Ã‚Â :;):

The bloodlord is built in to a retinue....

Juggernauts
Cost: 400 points
Squad: 6 stands
Frequency: 0-2 (? Necessary?)
How did you feel they performed? do you think it's necessary to restrict them to 0-2? They aren't the cheapest formation around for 400.

Bloodlord: Daemon Weapon, Base Contact, Assault Weapon, MW EA+2
Currently a free option as part of a retinue. Is it too good for no cost or is it already factored into the cost?
His cost is already included in the retinue's cost.

Daemon Prince: Currently in World Eaters v1.1
- Buy Warlord (50 points), replace a Bloodlord. Gain Supreme Commander.
- Upgrade to Daemon Prince (50 points). MW,TK(1) EA +3 in place of MW EA+2

Play tested as Buy Warlord (50 points) & Upgrade to Daemon Prince (+25 points) Ã¢â‚¬â€œ found to be too cheap.
yep, thought as much. I did say either 25 or 50 points. I was going to air on the side of an extra 50 in my games with him. He's essentially 150 in total cost.

Another observation:

This one was brought up by my opponent in the last game.

Current World Eater list v1.1 allows one to take 1/3 Titan Formations and another 1/3 Chaos Navy. In effect, that means that the World Eater list can take 2/3 of the force in Titans and Air Support.

Other armies only allow up to a 1/3 points to be taken from Allies. Is this an oversight?
Yes. The two sections should be one. Havent paid enough attention to the section set up however. They came directly across from 0.2.

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frogbear

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:35 am

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The Juggers:

I was pleased with the stats as the models are suitably bulky compared to the rest of the units. My opponent and scribe agreed that the stats themselves were quite representative.

At 400 points, I do not think that the 0-2 frequency is required. They are a good unit however you do pay the top price for them.

Dobbsy, are you happy to playtest the Juggers as I have proposed above in your game as well?

Also, any feedback on whether such a unit should be able to have a character?

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Morgan Vening

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:43 pm

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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 19 Jul. 2009, 10:27 )

Bloodlord: Daemon Weapon, Base Contact, Assault Weapon, MW EA+2
Currently a free option as part of a retinue. Is it too good for no cost or is it already factored into the cost?

His cost is already included in the retinue's cost.

Is it?

4 Berserkers are costed at 150 for their upgrade in a Black Legion list.

8 Berserkers for 275 seems relatively fair, though Black Corsairs pay 275 for 6 and a Chaos Lord.

The BloodLord adds in an additional MW attack, and given the army, that's a 2+.

As for the Daemon Prince, I don't think +3TK is necessary. Either +2TK (harder hitting) or +3MW (faster hitting) would be appropriate. Having him capable of obliterating Terminator squads almost single handedly seems a bit harsh.

Morgan Vening

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frogbear

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:45 pm

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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 19 Jul. 2009, 13:43 )

4 Berserkers are costed at 150 for their upgrade in a Black Legion list.

8 Berserkers for 275 seems relatively fair, though Black Corsairs pay 275 for 6 and a Chaos Lord.

The BloodLord adds in an additional MW attack, and given the army, that's a 2+.

Morgan Vening

Dobbsy, Can you please advise how you costed this?

Morgan makes some valid observations. Is it factored at about 50 points making the 8 man unit costs 225 points (28 points a stand)?

Thanks

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frogbear

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:49 pm

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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 19 Jul. 2009, 10:27 )

Daemon Prince: Currently in World Eaters v1.1.......... I was going to air on the side of an extra 50 in my games with him. He's essentially 150 in total cost.

Sorry dude

Also on this one. I am not seeing where the 150 is. I only get 100 extra (Warlord (50) + Daemon Prince (50) )

I am running a 'change document' to get it all recorded as a version sheet for my next game so just trying to get it right.

Thanks

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frogbear

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:03 pm

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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 19 Jul. 2009, 13:43 )

As for the Daemon Prince, I don't think +3TK is necessary. Either +2TK (harder hitting) or +3MW (faster hitting) would be appropriate. Having him capable of obliterating Terminator squads almost single handedly seems a bit harsh.

Morgan Vening

Problem is comparing it to the Black Legion list, the Daemon Prince gets:

base contact +2TK
fire fight +1TK

..and all for 50 points

I would hate the Khorne Daemon Prince to be weaker with base contact 3xMW.

Perhaps, while the the Black Legion has these stats, it may be balanced in that respect..

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Chroma

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:17 pm

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Quote: (frogbear @ 19 Jul. 2009, 23:03 )

Problem is comparing it to the Black Legion list, the Daemon Prince gets:

base contact +2TK
fire fight +1TK

..and all for 50 points

The NetEA recommendations reduce the Black Legion Daemon Prince to MW attacks only, not TK attacks, so this is following that lead.

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Dobbsy

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:27 pm

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I am not seeing where the 150 is. I only get 100 extra (Warlord (50) + Daemon Prince (50) )

50 base + 50 warlord + 50 DP

Is it factored at about 50 points making the 8 man unit costs 225 points (28 points a stand)?
Yes. I based the cost on a tactical stand (I base all infantry on these guys because they're a pretty good median with 4+ across the board) and adjusted for lack of shooting/FF, their need to make base to base contact to be effective and adjust for no base transport or TSKNF etc etc.

The BloodLord adds in an additional MW attack, and given the army, that's a 2+.
How would you cost him? 75 points? Bring the formation up to 300? Or remove the MW and say give an extra attack or 2 to represent ferocity etc?

At 400 points, I do not think that the 0-2 frequency is required. They are a good unit however you do pay the top price for them.

Dobbsy, are you happy to playtest the Juggers as I have proposed above in your game as well?
Yeah I'll be using your stats. I'd keep them at 0-2 for now though. I don't want to see half an army of them on the table top. For starters, they're supposed to be special character add-ons in the fluff so I'm not entirely sure they shouldn't be 0-1 in the first place.

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frogbear

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:11 am

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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 19 Jul. 2009, 23:27 )

How would you cost him? 75 points? Bring the formation up to 300?

I might go with the 300 point option for my next game and see how I go...

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frogbear

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:14 am

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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 19 Jul. 2009, 23:27 )

Yeah I'll be using your stats. I'd keep them at 0-2 for now though. I don't want to see half an army of them on the table top. For starters, they're supposed to be special character add-ons in the fluff so I'm not entirely sure they shouldn't be 0-1 in the first place.

Being LV kind of limits their ability somewhat as everything on a table can shoot at them. They are particularly susceptible to aircraft who's shots all count against them (both AP and AT).

Hence, I do not ever see myself taking more than 2 units (if that) at the 400 point mark anyway, so happy with the 0-2 restriction.

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Morgan Vening

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:05 am

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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 19 Jul. 2009, 23:27 )

Is it factored at about 50 points making the 8 man unit costs 225 points (28 points a stand)?

Yes. I based the cost on a tactical stand (I base all infantry on these guys because they're a pretty good median with 4+ across the board) and adjusted for lack of shooting/FF, their need to make base to base contact to be effective and adjust for no base transport or TSKNF etc etc.

The BloodLord adds in an additional MW attack, and given the army, that's a 2+.

How would you cost him? 75 points? Bring the formation up to 300? Or remove the MW and say give an extra attack or 2 to represent ferocity etc?

At 400 points, I do not think that the 0-2 frequency is required. They are a good unit however you do pay the top price for them.

Dobbsy, are you happy to playtest the Juggers as I have proposed above in your game as well?
Yeah I'll be using your stats. I'd keep them at 0-2 for now though. I don't want to see half an army of them on the table top. For starters, they're supposed to be special character add-ons in the fluff so I'm not entirely sure they shouldn't be 0-1 in the first place.
Re Bloodlord. If kept at +2MW, I'd advise an initial cost of 325, subject to a price drop to 300 if needed.

That's based on the 150 for 4. 300 for 8 is the base cost, with an approximate 1/6th reduction that seems to be the norm in the IG and Ork lists, making it 250 modified.

The Bloodlord IMO would indeed be costed at ~75. If you went with +2 normal attacks (dropping all Macro), the reduction to ~50 would be right. Unless the opponent is RA4+, or Armour3+, there's no real drop in power level from +1MWEA to +2EA.

Math theory and precedent bear all this out, but intensive playtesting would be the the only way to prove it in practice.

As for the Juggers, I feel they're substantially overpriced at the moment. A drop in cost wouldn't be out of order, IMO.

Comparison to Chosen/Chaos Terminators.
- Type - Juggers are LV. Termies are INF. Meaning certain cover advantages, no vulnerability to AT, and less difficult terrain (though Juggers do get Walker). Significant advantage Termies.
- Movement - Juggers slightly faster on the ground, substantially faster on the engage. Terminators most likely teleporting. Seems a wash IMO.
- Armour - 3+/6+I vs 4+/RA favours the Terminators slightly normally (25% fail vs 27.7% fail) and substantially against MW, but weaker against TK. Termies with TRA also get advantages against crossfire. Minor advantage Terminators.
- CC - Both get 1+MW. Juggers are 4+. Terminators are 2+. Nuff said. Medium advantage Terminators.
- FF - Both get normals. Juggers 6+. Terminators 4+. Again, nuff said. Medium advantage Terminators.
- Shooting - Juggers get offensive gestures and taunts. Terminators get a Reaper Autocannon. But what are you shooting for! Medium advantage Termies.
- Specials - Both get Fearless and Berserk. All other specials included above.

Now if we assume the cost of a Bloodlord to be ~75, that puts 4 Terminators at 75pts each. Current math on the Juggers puts them at 67pts each. Dropping them to 350 a squad would be a good start, and if deemed to be too cheap, a raise to Terminator squad effectiveness (375) could easily be managed, and a drop to 325 if still not workable also a possibility. Though I do agree with Dobbsy that making them 0-1 might be better. However, for playlist testing, I'd recommend 0-2 elite units (Combination of Terminators AND/OR Juggers) and that'll let the 'market' decide. What would people take if they had the option? Two Termies? Two Juggers? One of each? Or neither? A return to 0-1 of each after playtesting has been concluded would permit the higher levels of abuse.

Morgan Vening

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frogbear

Post subject: World Eaters 1.1 open discussion

Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:52 pm

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Let's all do the math and compare shall we:

Black Legion Terminators are 65 points

World Eater v1.1 Terminators are ~93 Points

Death Guard Terminators (Hena Modified List): 100 points

Emperor's Children Terminators V2.1: 83 Points

Thousand Sons v3.1 Rubric Terminators: 81 Points (+75 points extra ones)

Benefits:

-Black Legion Termies: 2 x autocannon shots, can have 6 in a unit

-World Eater Termies: CC2+, Fearless, Berserk(bonus & negative)

-Death Guard Terminators: 0-2 rarity, 2 x autocannon, Can have 7 in a unit, Nurgle's Rot(?), Stubborn(Fearless)

-Emperor's Children Termies: 0-2 rarity, 2 x Blastmaster, 2x extra FF - 1 with First strike, Fearless, Stratergy Rating D6, Has 6 in a unit

-Thousand Son's Rubric Terminators: No Limit, Can have 6 in a unit, Fearless, 2x Sorcerous Powers (30cm), Stratergy Rating 5

I think it is important to look at all the benefits of each list before making judgements on the specifics of the World Eaters points costs. Having only 4 terminators available to the unit and being the only Cult list to have the 0-1 restriction is quite a setback compared to the others IMO.

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