? Why have you pushed for them to be changed then? The only reason for the change is to reflect 40k as there have never been any balance complaints with them.


They, and the desecrator  are completely pointless as add-ons and there are better both shooting and assault options than the defilers.

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

And, speaking of tournaments, there's a good one coming up in your neck of the woods, studderingdave!

North East Epic Armageddon Tournament II

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I'm in support of updating them to be properly representative of their Warhammer 40,000 counterparts because I don't want to be playing a game like (sorry guys) NetEpic in a few years time, full of versions of units and list styles that disappeared from the Warhammer 40,000 game years ago.

So if given the opportunity to keep Epic in synch with Warhammer 40,000 where major changes have occured,(let's say once every four years or so) as they have with the Defiler, then I would push for those changes...

...because I want Epic to remain attractive to newbies, not simply serve the current batch of gamers, and each failure to update (at the correct and opportune moment) is a small drift away from contiguousity with the rules (and background) of Warhammer 40,000.

And before you know it, several years have gone by and Epic no longer looks like it's part of the Warhammer 40,000 background, but has become a distinct (and to many, consequently unattractive) entity. That's what happened with NetEpic, and it's what can happen with EpicUK.

So no, my support for the change has nothing to do with balance, and everything to do with the zen philosophy of Games Design.

They, and the desecrator  are completely pointless as add-ons and there are better both shooting and assault options than the defilers.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Really you spoke to Jervis? - you've never mentioned that before.

His response really depends on what the information given to him was over the balance of the BL. Whether it represented the wider view or a louder view

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

I have mentioned it before, and included that quote before too, not loudly or repeatedly though.

Perhaps I should be more loud so that I am heard properly.  

We mostly discussed other things on the occasion that the Black Legion came up, but we discussed its half-completed nature for five minutes or so.

His response really depends on what the information given to him was over the balance of the BL.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I assume thats a joke as you bring it up in every BL discussion

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www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

I've only brought it (Jervis' thoughts on Defilers) up two times before IIRC.


It would really help things if you stopped being so sarcastic all the time, debating with you is really hard work because of it.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Just to chip in here, I think the Net-EA stats are much more representative of how a Defiler should be.

*look* at the model and the background - does it really seem as though it should be a very slow moving 15cm beast? One which would be content to sit still and shoot away at far off enemies it might not even be able to see? It's an enraged demon with plentiful close combat and short ranged weapons for cruks sake - it should be moving a lot and charging towards the enemy to make use of them! It should have rules that make that viable rather than discouraging it.

In W40k the original Defiler couldn't standardly fire indirectly, if you really wanted it to you had to pay points and have a specially modified version of the gun (which is not present on the W40k or epic models - that's blatantly a battle cannon and not an upward firing artillery type weapon capable of striking 150cm away). I don't think indirect fire should really have been given to the unit in epic originally because it was only an optional upgrade and because it took it too much away from the way the unit should play - it's always really surprised me it had it - and the newer W40k changes make me certain it shouldn't. While I detest many other areas of the newer Chaos Codex I think it's Defiler changes make a lot of sense - the option to modify the gun for indirect fire has been lost and it now has above average vehicle speed when charging towards the enemy, as befitting the model with so many scuttling legs and the background of an enraged demon-machine that needs to be sedated when not in battle for the safety of it's comrades.

The current Net-EA stats look pretty good to me. Yes they change the role of the unit much more than most tweaks, but here I think that is only right and proper and these should be tested and tweaked further to make them more viable (a BL Defiler formation sounds like a very good idea to me). I'm actually really surprised people like Chroma and Neal are still using the old version and not the helping playtest and tweak further the current stats if they're too poor at the moment. Any particular reason guys?

I realise an indirect artillery unit is very tactically useful to a Chaos army, but it's really not the role a Defiler should be forced into and if it means Chaos armies would have to chance their tactics to better represent the background and feel of the units then I think they should.

I agree with E&Cs eloquently put concerns above and hope Epic-UK will use the newer style stats and consider keeping the lists vaguely-inline with the W40k ones and current background to be important, rather than simply basing their changes purely on game balance (I will be disappointed if the excessive war-machine lists the current list allows are not curtailed some too).

Mainly because I haven't done any Chaos testing in quite some time is all... if Black Legion/LatD come up in the playtest mix, I'll be using the new NetEA stats.

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"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

*look* at the model and the background - does it really seem as though it should be a very slow moving 15cm beast? One which would be content to sit still and shoot away at far off enemies it might not even be able to see? It's an enraged demon with plentiful close combat and short ranged weapons for cruks sake - it should be moving a lot and charging towards the enemy to make use of them! It should have rules that make that viable rather than discouraging it.

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Well, I said when it was all being tested how silly it was...

Personally I will wait and see what EpicUK does, since like it or not they are the focus of my Epic gaming. I can live with only ever seeing one of 'em atatched to a decimator in a game, or becoming a boost to a ground attack formation. Stick 'em in a dredclaw, that would be fun.

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im gonna try it in a game on the 11th in a formation of its own, ill see if moscovian lets me first of course. i wanna try the faster more in your face defiler.

I would use it more, if it was allowed to use Dreadclaws...
Retinue with Dreads & Defilers in Dreadclaws, mmm...

I'll add my opinion here. The reason I was for a change to the defiler characteristics is not so much because of the change in 40K stats as the reason for the change in 40k stats. Defilers in 40K were useful under the old rules - equipped with indirect fire almost as standard they functioned as indirect-fire barrage weapons and the Epic stats represented that well.

As Glyn says, these just didn't do the model or the background of the defiler justice. The 40K designers realised this and the changes to the defiler in the current codex - while still primarily an ordinance platform - do encourage it to be more 'stompy' and 'crushy.' You see defiler smashing through enemy formations more often these days. I think the Epic stats should follow suit, for the same reasons.

So while this is a change for the sake of "feel" rather than balance - and for the hardcore gamers this probably doesn't seem necessary - I think it is worth doing to give these massive, imposing daemon engines the characteristics they deserve. Assuming, of course, we don't just split the NetEA Chaos community.

sorry, i have family business that weekend. i would have prolly drove up if it wasnt this weekend.