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Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?

 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:25 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 20 Jun. 2009, 13:56 )

It depends whether you define 'non-representative stats' as a 'problem' ; if they're balanced, why change them to more properly reflect what they are in Warhammer 40,000 (the marketing-driven kid's game), hey ho?

? Why have you pushed for them to be changed then? The only reason for the change is to reflect 40k as there have never been any balance complaints with them.


They, and the desecrator :disagree:  are completely pointless as add-ons and there are better both shooting and assault options than the defilers.

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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:27 pm 
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Quote: (studderingdave @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:13 )

so a revision that included a defiler formation would be for casual gaming then?

And, speaking of tournaments, there's a good one coming up in your neck of the woods, studderingdave!

North East Epic Armageddon Tournament II

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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:38 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:25 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 20 Jun. 2009, 13:56 )

It depends whether you define 'non-representative stats' as a 'problem' ; if they're balanced, why change them to more properly reflect what they are in Warhammer 40,000 (the marketing-driven kid's game), hey ho?

? Why have you pushed for them to be changed then? The only reason for the change is to reflect 40k as there have never been any balance complaints with them.

I'm in support of updating them to be properly representative of their Warhammer 40,000 counterparts because I don't want to be playing a game like (sorry guys) NetEpic in a few years time, full of versions of units and list styles that disappeared from the Warhammer 40,000 game years ago.

So if given the opportunity to keep Epic in synch with Warhammer 40,000 where major changes have occured,(let's say once every four years or so) as they have with the Defiler, then I would push for those changes...

...because I want Epic to remain attractive to newbies, not simply serve the current batch of gamers, and each failure to update (at the correct and opportune moment) is a small drift away from contiguousity with the rules (and background) of Warhammer 40,000.

And before you know it, several years have gone by and Epic no longer looks like it's part of the Warhammer 40,000 background, but has become a distinct (and to many, consequently unattractive) entity. That's what happened with NetEpic, and it's what can happen with EpicUK.

So no, my support for the change has nothing to do with balance, and everything to do with the zen philosophy of Games Design.

They, and the desecrator :disagree:  are completely pointless as add-ons and there are better both shooting and assault options than the defilers.


The Desecrator (and the Stalker) makes sense as an alternative AA option to the Obliterator (acknowleged by many to be a unit in severe need of a beating with the nerf bat), and Jervis himself gave the thumbs-up for the two new units, especially the Stalker ("They (the original Marine Legions) must have had something for (organic) Anti-Aircraft duties" said he).


As to there being better choices for particular roles, there are always better choices, that's why points costs were invented.




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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:44 pm 
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Really you spoke to Jervis? - you've never mentioned that before.

His response really depends on what the information given to him was over the balance of the BL. :) Whether it represented the wider view or a louder view

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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:44 )

Really you spoke to Jervis? - you've never mentioned that before.

I have mentioned it before, and included that quote before too, not loudly or repeatedly though.

Perhaps I should be more loud so that I am heard properly.  :whistle:

We mostly discussed other things on the occasion that the Black Legion came up, but we discussed its half-completed nature for five minutes or so.

His response really depends on what the information given to him was over the balance of the BL. :)

Jervis, without any prompting from me as to what the ERC had been considering came up with the idea of both an AA Defiler and an AA Rhino-hulled vehicle on the spot, as a way to balance out the proposed loss/downgrading of the Obliterator's AA power, and as a method of fleshing out the character of the BL list itself.

We did not discuss the overall balance of the list, only its character and 'feel'...

Whether it represented the wider view or a louder view
...and you know that I believe that the louder view happens to be the majority view due to the plentiful open votes that have occured... aren't you always complaining about how people shouldn't state their opinions as fact?




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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 2:58 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:56 )

Quote: (Steve54 @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:44 )

Really you spoke to Jervis? - you've never mentioned that before.

I have mentioned it before, and included that quote before too, not loudly or repeatedly though.

I assume thats a joke as you bring it up in every BL discussion

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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:00 pm 
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Quote: (Steve54 @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:58 )

Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:56 )

Quote: (Steve54 @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:44 )

Really you spoke to Jervis? - you've never mentioned that before.

I have mentioned it before, and included that quote before too, not loudly or repeatedly though.

I assume thats a joke as you bring it up in every BL discussion

I've only brought it (Jervis' thoughts on Defilers) up two times before IIRC.


It would really help things if you stopped being so sarcastic all the time, debating with you is really hard work because of it.




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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:36 pm 
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Just to chip in here, I think the Net-EA stats are much more representative of how a Defiler should be.

*look* at the model and the background - does it really seem as though it should be a very slow moving 15cm beast? One which would be content to sit still and shoot away at far off enemies it might not even be able to see? It's an enraged demon with plentiful close combat and short ranged weapons for cruks sake - it should be moving a lot and charging towards the enemy to make use of them! It should have rules that make that viable rather than discouraging it.

In W40k the original Defiler couldn't standardly fire indirectly, if you really wanted it to you had to pay points and have a specially modified version of the gun (which is not present on the W40k or epic models - that's blatantly a battle cannon and not an upward firing artillery type weapon capable of striking 150cm away). I don't think indirect fire should really have been given to the unit in epic originally because it was only an optional upgrade and because it took it too much away from the way the unit should play - it's always really surprised me it had it - and the newer W40k changes make me certain it shouldn't. While I detest many other areas of the newer Chaos Codex I think it's Defiler changes make a lot of sense - the option to modify the gun for indirect fire has been lost and it now has above average vehicle speed when charging towards the enemy, as befitting the model with so many scuttling legs and the background of an enraged demon-machine that needs to be sedated when not in battle for the safety of it's comrades.

The current Net-EA stats look pretty good to me. Yes they change the role of the unit much more than most tweaks, but here I think that is only right and proper and these should be tested and tweaked further to make them more viable (a BL Defiler formation sounds like a very good idea to me). I'm actually really surprised people like Chroma and Neal are still using the old version and not the helping playtest and tweak further the current stats if they're too poor at the moment. Any particular reason guys?

I realise an indirect artillery unit is very tactically useful to a Chaos army, but it's really not the role a Defiler should be forced into and if it means Chaos armies would have to chance their tactics to better represent the background and feel of the units then I think they should.

I agree with E&Cs eloquently put concerns above and hope Epic-UK will use the newer style stats and consider keeping the lists vaguely-inline with the W40k ones and current background to be important, rather than simply basing their changes purely on game balance (I will be disappointed if the excessive war-machine lists the current list allows are not curtailed some too).


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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:40 pm 
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Quote: (GlynG @ 20 Jun. 2009, 19:36 )

I'm actually really surprised people like Chroma and Neal are still using the old version and not the helping playtest and tweak further the current stats if they're too poor at the moment. Any particular reason guys?

Mainly because I haven't done any Chaos testing in quite some time is all... if Black Legion/LatD come up in the playtest mix, I'll be using the new NetEA stats.

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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:41 pm 
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*look* at the model and the background - does it really seem as though it should be a very slow moving 15cm beast? One which would be content to sit still and shoot away at far off enemies it might not even be able to see? It's an enraged demon with plentiful close combat and short ranged weapons for cruks sake - it should be moving a lot and charging towards the enemy to make use of them! It should have rules that make that viable rather than discouraging it.


I think you hit the nail with this  :agree: The whole model screams "I want to shoot you in the face with my battlecannon and then rip apart what remains!"

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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:44 pm 
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Well, I said when it was all being tested how silly it was...

Personally I will wait and see what EpicUK does, since like it or not they are the focus of my Epic gaming. I can live with only ever seeing one of 'em atatched to a decimator in a game, or becoming a boost to a ground attack formation. Stick 'em in a dredclaw, that would be fun.

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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:56 am 
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im gonna try it in a game on the 11th in a formation of its own, ill see if moscovian lets me first of course. i wanna try the faster more in your face defiler.


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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:08 am 
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I would use it more, if it was allowed to use Dreadclaws...
Retinue with Dreads & Defilers in Dreadclaws, mmm...


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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:40 pm 
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I'll add my opinion here. The reason I was for a change to the defiler characteristics is not so much because of the change in 40K stats as the reason for the change in 40k stats. Defilers in 40K were useful under the old rules - equipped with indirect fire almost as standard they functioned as indirect-fire barrage weapons and the Epic stats represented that well.

As Glyn says, these just didn't do the model or the background of the defiler justice. The 40K designers realised this and the changes to the defiler in the current codex - while still primarily an ordinance platform - do encourage it to be more 'stompy' and 'crushy.' You see defiler smashing through enemy formations more often these days. I think the Epic stats should follow suit, for the same reasons.

So while this is a change for the sake of "feel" rather than balance - and for the hardcore gamers this probably doesn't seem necessary - I think it is worth doing to give these massive, imposing daemon engines the characteristics they deserve. Assuming, of course, we don't just split the NetEA Chaos community.





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 Post subject: Black Legion: Where do you put your defilers?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:38 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:27 )

Quote: (studderingdave @ 20 Jun. 2009, 14:13 )

so a revision that included a defiler formation would be for casual gaming then?

And, speaking of tournaments, there's a good one coming up in your neck of the woods, studderingdave!

North East Epic Armageddon Tournament II

sorry, i have family business that weekend. i would have prolly drove up if it wasnt this weekend.


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