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[fanlist] Iron Warriors
BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:55 am 
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Because of their populairty i though to give the Iron Warriors a thought. I based the army list on the Annihilation of Hydra Cordatus during Abbadons 13th Black Crusade.
The whole event is described in detail in the Black Library novel "Storm of Iron".
It is a modified version of my Red corsairs army list without Daemons and Thunderhawks but with Slaves, Chaos Baneblades, Fortifications, Siege Titans and Artillery.
Perhabs it could be implemented in a supplement together with a combined Imperial Fists 3rd Company, Imperial Guard 383rd Jouran Dragoons and Legio Ignatum Titans army list presenting the defenders and some scenarios? :)

Edit: Version 1.4 available:




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Magarch
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:03 am 
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Well, here are some of my thoughts about this list ;

About the special rules :

- I don't like to force people to take a supreme commander, even if it is useful. Just let the option for those who want and make them pay for it, that's fine like this. Chaos Marines have already a "core" lord character in many of their formations : that alone is good enough to represent the fluff (even if I think that's not so justified in their background, but then it's just my point of view).

- Fortified positions are fluff, right. Still, I'm not sure it is a good idea with troops like Chaos Space Marines. I don't think it was a good idea in the beginning with Baran Siegemasters, in fact...Would rather fortified positions better be representative in a special scenario.

- With Iron Warriors, I thought of leaving the Chaos Sorcerer and just have Chaos Lords. Maybe creating a special character like Forge Master would be a good thing ; I don't see Iron Warriors following a Sorcerer in battle, these renegades only trust steel and strenght, not puny sorcery and warp mastery.

About the list :

- Iron Warriors aren't known for their bikes - in fact, it's quite the opposite, those are very few among them. So few that in Epic, they shouldn't be in the list. I would advise to remove them of the list. Completely. Iron Warriors are siege masters and bikes aren't the best tools used for that. Would you attack a fortress with a bike ? Well, not me.

- I would rather see the Armoured Company in the core formations. After all, Iron Warriors are known to make a great use of vehicles and other heavy equipment.

- Iron Warriors don't really worship the Chaos Gods. That's why Cult Marines feel so wrong to me in the list. Truth is, they shouldn't be here. In the fluff, Iron Warriors were known to have some Khorne worshippers, but most of their members are just renegade space marines who aren't even marked by Undivided Chaos. I would advise to remove the Cult Marines from their options, or just allow Khorne Berserkers.

- 450 points for six Basilisk with 1+ initiative rating, that is quite a gift. There's no way they should have such a heavy reduction when they actually gain something when compared to the Imperial Guard (1+ initiative rating is NOT a "small upgrade" for artillery). Six Basiliks is a huge formation by the way. I would rather set this to Four at 350 points (25 points higher than the Lost and Damned because of their better initiative). Vindicators and Defilers should be removed from their upgrades as well ; they are better left with armoured companies

- Rather than allowing marked vehicles for Iron Warriors, I feel undivided vehicles would be better - just to be in the line with their fluff. That means leaving Brass Scorpions and Plaguereaper (at least that last one, Khorne is still the closer to the Iron Warriors). 175 points for a Baneblade who has a better initiative than its imperial guard "brother" is again a free reduction that is unjustified (and I don't care Imperial Guard have free commissars, that shouldn't be counting in the price for Iron Warriors or others Chaos lists !). 200 points is the minimum, really.

- Why not using Hellfire Canons from the Lost and Damned list instead of Chaos Artillery ?

- For Chaos Titans, I don't see why you want to make different profiles or cost from their loyalist counterparts. Using the same would be so easier to test.

Of course, you do what you want with this piece of my thoughts.  :D
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:06 pm 
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(Magarch @ Mar. 10 2008,04:03)
QUOTE

Supreme Commander: the main BL listhas it so the IW will have it too.

Fortified Position: The Barans have it so the IW will have it too :D

Sorcerers: have you read "Dead Sky, Black Sun"? The IW use Sorcerers.

Bikes: If yiu create a breach the rubble forms some kind of ramp. And you need some fast moving units to take the breach before thr enemy can fortify it again withtroops. I have this cool image of hordes of Bikes driving this ramp up into the breach :)

Armored Company as Core: This would be a possibility.

Chaos Gods: Yes the IW are an Unidivded Legion. But the leaning towards Khorne seems only come from the fact that the Chaos Artillery pieces are mainly Daemon Engines of Khorne.

Basilisks: Ok seem a bit cheap for Initiative 1+ :)

War Engines: well don't know. Calculating reasonable point values is my weak spot.

Artillery: I wanted some diversity between the different Artillery units. Hellfire Cannons seem so...bland.

Titans: I feld they need some configurations fitting withthe armys theme. In "Storm of Iron" they are describet as fitted with Siege Ramps on the carapace, etc.

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Tooninki
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:04 pm 
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Could you change Chaos warlord for Warsmith?
Btw, did techmarines have any special rules?, some of the Warsmiths use servoarms.
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M4jumbo
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:31 pm 
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Because of the imagery from Storm of Iron, the ease of painting, and a desire to use all those E40K techmarines for commanders, I've been thinking about painting an Iron Warriors army. ?(Unfortunately there is a long line of other projects in the way.) ?

Without having played with the list, it seems to have a good overall feel. ?A couple of things I would do differently have been pointed out by others:

Bikes, I think at best they should be in the Support section, if they are available at all for Iron Warriors. ?I think they would have limited applicaton in the Iron Warriors siege/defenseive style fighting and should therefore be limited to give the list a more unique theme. ?And as an avid motorcycle rider, the image of riding a bike into a rubble filled breach just gives me visions of a 100% destroyed bike formation. ?:D

Related to not having Bikes in the Core section would b moving the Armored Company into the Core section. ?From the background the IW are characterised by their heavy equipment and in the last Chaos Codex they could swap two Fast Attack choices to add an extra Heavy Support. ?It would seem in line with the IW style to include more heavy armor in the Core.

Not sure on the Cult Marines. ?Storm of Iron seems to indicate that Khorne Berserkers are present, and maybe it's enough to be able to restrict the Cult Marine choice to only Khorne Berserkers. ?It would be another way to seperate the IW from other Chaos Marine lists.

And if the IW are restricted to Khorne cultists, then the Khorne vehicles in the Assault Company fit in with the list better. ?At that point I would get rid of the Plaguereaper though. ?And possibly add in more of the Khorne vehicles (Death Dealer, Tower of Skulls, etc).

Format note, you have the Titans listed as Armored Vehicles rather than War Engines.

Thanks for putting it together.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:29 am 
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Version 1.1 uploaded.

Changlog:

- removed all Cult Marines with the expetion of Berzerkes.
- Cult Marines formation now renamed Khorne Cult.
- removed Plaguereaper.
- Daemon Prince upgrade only available for the Warsmith character.
- the Obliterators ubpgrade is now up to four Obliterators instead of up to three.
- upped points cost of the Chaos Baneblade.
- switched Bike Retinue and Armored Company.
- added Iron Warriors Warsmith character (replaces Chaos Warlord)




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Tooninki
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:23 pm 
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Thanks M4jumbo i was going to suggest changing bikes to armoured company but you were faster... :p
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Tooninki
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:29 pm 
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Is that deliperate that Terminator retinue is no longer 0-2 choice?!
Chaos Warhound has Vulcan mb and Plasma blastgun or Turbolasers & Inferno gun?
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:13 am 
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@Tooniki:
1. Yes. My Red Corsairs army list has this too.
2. Scroll down for the Titan units. The Chaos Warhounds stats are at the bottom of the pdf.

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rpr
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 8:59 am 
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v1.1:
Kannon of Khorne has text about indirect barrage. I guess it is intentional that it is different than in LatD...

Chaos Siegelord has Siege Ramps and Battle Head which does nothing (maybe those gatling blaster extra attacks are supposed to be in battle head in stead? :)
Chaos Reaver also has misaligned Notes on its weapons.

Why fortified army might have dreadclaws? =]

In overall, looks interesting list. Could give it a try some day...

(but nooooo.. I have only one Doom Blaster...)
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:52 am 
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Cannon of Khorne: Oops. Copy and Paste error. The Doom Blaster shouldn't have it too.

Siegelord: The Siegramps have the transport spaces. The battleheads abilities are one column farther above :D I edit it.

Dreadclaws: Because it is an offensive fortified army. In the inital assault on the spaceport of Hydra Cordatus dreadclaws where used.

Version 1.2 ulpoaded.

Changelog:
- removed lcopy&paste error from Cannon of Khorne and Doom Blaster
- corrected typo on the Siegelords and Reavers weapons
- added Fearless to Canon of Khorne and Doom Blaster because all Daemon Engines have Invulnerable Save AND Fearless.
- increased point cost for Chaos Artillery upgrade form +25 to +50pts each.

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:03 am 
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Comments:

I think the armoured company needs vindicators as a main choice. At one point the Iron Warriors on Hydra Cordatus use 200 something vindicators at once - I dont think that means they were accompanied by 300 predators tagging along! :)

IMO you should use the Hellfire Cannon stats for the Cannon of Khorne, variant lists should strike to introduce as few new units as possible, and presumably these will use the same figures as well - thats just going to get confusing if you use different stats.

The Iron Warriors Guns are static guns in Storm of Iron - maybe they should be using Basilisk platforms rather than the self-propelled variant?

The slaves are used in their own offensive at least once, maybe they should be core? Alternatively, maybe they should not count as a support?  They should have access to land transporters as well given the attack they do take part in.

There are no mentions of Baneblades and Brass Scorpions at Hydra Cordatus (I cant remember any defilers for that matter!) If they are present, you should include Decimators as well, they have a very iron warriors feel and also the Iron warriors have been sent by abaddon - he could easily have given them some (in fact they are likely to have their own anyway given that they are based on a great crusade design and the iron warriors have stayed together pretty well since M31)

There is no mention of raptors or bikers. There is no situation where bikers might have been used though, but raptors would have been useful - seems like they werent present (correct me if I'm wrong, there are a lot of action scenes)

Is there a reason that no battleship is used? I think there is meant to be one over Cordatus during the campaign

They didnt use airpower much in the assault, although that could have been due to imperial AA? It perhaps indicates a lack of it though

Chaos titan names = bland. But Siegelord sounds wicked

The Deus Irae needs to get stats in an appendix :)

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:09 am 
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Regarding the Jouran Dragoons and other imperials, I was thinking they might be better as one list structured as:

1) The core Jouran list - static infantry and artillery, siegemasters style but using basilisks and autocannon infantry.
Then the player can choose early, mid or late campaign
a) Early, gets airpower and some armour, but no titans or Marines
b) Gets titans, armour, and allows infantry to be mechanised, but no marines or airpower
c) gets smaller titans only, no armour or mechanised, no aipower, but gets 3rd company marines, 2 tactical detachments, 1 assault and 1 devastator only but with some special rule to represent their determination. Maybe just make them fearless... (no transport though)

In essence 3 mini variants.

What shouldnt be happening is SM at the same time as warlords and marauders...unless the list gets that flexibility to represent what ifs? (eg, the marines got down early, etc)

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Onyx
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Hope it's not an problem to bring this thread back but I was wondering if there was any plans to update this list with the newer stats/units that have surfaced in the last year.

BlackLegion?

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Iron Warriors
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 11:06 pm 
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Remind me again at the beginning of June. Then i will be back at my own computer :)

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