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Proposed Chaos AA
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=14755		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  pixelgeek [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Has anyone had enough games with the proposed new AA units to comment on them?

Any general opinions about them?

They Rhino based AA I have fielded haven't really had that great of an impact and I can't shake the feeling that having dedicated AA is not very Chaosy.

I'm starting to be of the opinion that perhaps the best option is keep the list as is and make the Chaos player take aircraft to counter enemy aircraft. I'm thinking that stats and abilities should be in line with allowing the Chaos player to take a fair number if need be.

Anyone else have any experience with the new units or thoughts?
Author:  hello_dave [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Well it's funny you should say that. I'll be playing on wednesday with the current Chaos playtest changes. I plan on using a few of the Defiler-based AA units (personally I think these are far more characterful, and help set Chaos apart from marines). I plan on posting results :)

My take on using the Chaos aircraft as the AA in the list is that it's a good idea, but that the Chaos War Engine/Aircraft allowance is now under a lot of pressure already, since it's the only place you can now purchase Titan's, other superheavies and aircraft.
If it were up to me, I'd have the Desecrator as the main AA, but I'm cool with using the planes, as long as another formation ('Daemon Engines' or something) is added to the list outside of the 1/3 war engines limit (I think that this could contain the Decimator and the Defiler).
Author:  pixelgeek [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Quote: (hello_dave @ 02 Feb. 2009, 11:36 )

My take on using the Chaos aircraft as the AA in the list is that it's a good idea, but that the Chaos War Engine/Aircraft allowance is now under a lot of pressure already, since it's the only place you can now purchase Titan's, other superheavies and aircraft.

There is that.

The Defiler option does seem very fitting.
Author:  vytzka [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Is it really necessary to limit Chaos planes to the 1/3 section? They're not widely used, which hints at them probably not being overpowered, and several armies can already take an all-aircraft list (and yet no one ever does because it's non-viable).
Author:  pixelgeek [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Quote: (vytzka @ 02 Feb. 2009, 12:26 )

Is it really necessary to limit Chaos planes to the 1/3 section?

It helps act as a limiting factor on the number of War Engines the list can take. More WEs mean less Titans and aircraft and that opens your list up to being susceptible to aircraft attacks or being at the mercy of someone's titans
Author:  hello_dave [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
I think that's a good idea too. So there's a good few options open :) The bonus of using the aircraft to me is that you can get hold of the models (and indeed play using them at GW). I always thought the Stalker was a bit out of place, love the idea of the Desecrator and  obviously the aircraft have the full backing of official fluff, and are cool themselves!
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
One of the main reasons for the Stalker was the fact that it can easily be modelled. How off-putting have Desecrators been due to the lack of models? Has anyone made any conversions we can have a look at?
Author:  hello_dave [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA

It helps act as a limiting factor on the number of War Engines the list can take. More WEs mean less Titans and aircraft and that opens your list up to being susceptible to aircraft attacks or being at the mercy of someone's titans

Agreed, but to me as it stands the playtest BL has a pretty harsh restriction placed on it by not being able to access any other war engines at all outside the 1/3 limit. I think they had it too good before, with the deathwheels outside the limit though! To me forcing them to draw their AA from this allowance too is a further restriction that other lists don't have.
Author:  hello_dave [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
I've had a bash at some desecrators, there should be pics up later in the week, I wouldn't say they're great by any stretch of the imagination though (I'll use some of Otterman's crabbes with weapon swaps if the unit makes it into the eventual list).
Author:  pixelgeek [ Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Quote: (hello_dave @ 02 Feb. 2009, 13:11 )

Agreed, but to me as it stands the playtest BL has a pretty harsh restriction placed on it by not being able to access any other war engines at all outside the 1/3 limit.

That was specifically added to take away the option of creating very WE heavy lists that were quite unbalanced.
Author:  hello_dave [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Indeed, although I think that was more down to the Deathwheels being included in the Assault Company formation. I could be wrong, are decimators also that overpowered? I usually run one and it seems ok.
Author:  Markconz [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:09 am ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
H, could someone remind me what is the recommended modelling is for a stalker? A rhino with some (any?) sort of missile system??
Author:  Wisp [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 02 Feb. 2009, 21:10 )

One of the main reasons for the Stalker was the fact that it can easily be modelled. How off-putting have Desecrators been due to the lack of models? Has anyone made any conversions we can have a look at?

I suppose it wouldn't be any harder or easier than creating a defiler, it's just a defiler with different weapons, after all. And people seem to have trouble with regular defilers.

But my issue with the defiler/desecrator is that you can only fit one into a garrison squad, in which it's fairly expensive, easy to pick out as the only armoured vehicle and somewhat fragile. I'd rather stick with the official obliterators, at least they're tough and won't get sniped by AT fire. And in case you don't want to garrison them, they'll slow down pretty much any formation apart from decimators, with which they can't be in the middle of the formation, unless you're bringing more than one decimator. So they'd be somewhat exposed to quick enemy formations and aircraft willing to brave the AA fire to take it out. If AA was removed from obliterators and the stalker wouldn't rear its head in the official list, I'd probably just rely on aircraft for anti-air.
Author:  Irondeath [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Well, Oliterators being almost impossible to suppress was the top reason to try a different apporach on Chaos AA.

I actually like the current situation with two AA platforms. The Stalker provides cheap, fast AA cover to Armoured Coys and mechanized Retinues, which both really need AA coverage.

Garrisons and Decimator Assault Coys can use the better, more expensive Desecrator.

Speaking of which, it is rather unfortunate to have Desecrators/Defilers in the Assault Company count towards the 1/3rd Titan/Air restriction, surely this is not intentional or warranted?

Modellingwise, I use Brass Scorpions for my Desecrators, Blood Slaughterers count-as Defilers, and Whirlwinds as Stalkers, going full proxy.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Proposed Chaos AA
Quote: (Irondeath @ 03 Feb. 2009, 02:46 )

Well, Oliterators being almost impossible to suppress was the top reason to try a different apporach on Chaos AA.

The issue never has been a general problem with Obliterators primarily Obliterators with Chosen.
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