Planning to have another game sometime this week, I´ll try a somewhat mixed force including favourites from the previous battles: The Defiler-CC-Armoured, Decimator+Desecrator, a Chosen formation and replacing the Bike Coy with repriced Raptors.


300 Assault Coy: Decimator, Desecrator
200 HellBlades
200 HellTalons

555 Chaos Terminatos (x4), DP (winged), Icon, Pact, 2x Oblits
475 Armoured Coy: 3xDefiler, 4x Vindicator, Stalker
265 6xRaptors, Pact
570 BL Ret, DP (Warlord), Icon, Pact, 2x Oblits, BTS
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact

240 Daemon Pool: 12x LD

2995 Points, 8 Activations

I´m still pondering an alternative list featuring a Ravager Titan, I despise the Doomburner passionately so I might as well renew my distaste for it in this battle...


625 Ravager
200 HellBlades

470 Chaos Terminatos (x4), DP (winged), Icon, Pact, 1x Oblits
475 Armoured Coy: 3xDefiler, 4x Vindicator, Stalker
345 8xRaptors, Pact
475 BL Ret, DP (Warlord), Icon, Pact, Desecrator
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact

260 Daemon Pool: 13x LD

3000 Points, 7 Activations


Eldar:

000 Avatar
050 Wraithgate

750 Phantom Titan (2xPulsar) BTS
150 Wraithship

200 Guardian Warhost (3xHWP + 3xSWP)
200 Guardian Warhost (3xHWP + 3xSWP)
200 Guardian Warhost (3xHWP + 3xSWP)

100 4xRangers
175 Nightspinners
175 Nightspinners
250 Falcon Troupe (2xFirestorm)
250 Falcon Troupe (2xFirestorm)
200 Windriders (4x Jetbikes, 2x Vypers)
200 Windriders (4x Jetbikes, 2x Vypers)

11+1+1 activations, one of them a  Battle Titan...


Thoughts, glaring mistakes?

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Terminators - not going with the one use style and including an icon? Will they be hitting a flank/turn 2'ing? A Chaos champ is better for alpha assaults.

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IMO teleporting alpha strikes are too easy to counter, it would take 2 tooled-up Terminator formations to overload enemy defences by generating multiple threats. In a tournament list, that´s too much hit-or-miss, I wouldn´t try that.

Tactically, the C-Termies will indeed flank or wait for T2. I think they are great if you can keep them unbroken and solidly in the enemy´s rear, preferably close to the Blitz. BL is commonly in a position to all-out attack in T2, with the C-Termies piling in one might just generate one threat to many for the enemy to deal with even should he win initiative.

Generally, I´d rate first BL list as conservative (if a Chaos list can really be called that), the 2nd isn´t due to the Ravager.

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That's a lot of slow foot guardians in the eldar list. Even if one leaves the gate every turn I doubt you will get their points worth in the game.

I´ve been highly successful with Guardians, they are strictly defensive formations and cheap enough so that 2 of them can be committed as Blitz guard. When the enemy approaches, Sustains with the HWP+SWP hit on 4+, giving the occassional kill, while the Guardians and Farseer (potential Avatar) make these formations difficult to clear in Engages.

The Wraithgate has the remaining Guardian formation and 2 Windriders earmarked, the plan is to screen the gate with the Rangers and deploy the Guardians early on, again purely for defence. If the enemy attacks, the Guardians will provide the Avatar (maybe) and support fire for Windriders emerging in T2.

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Well if it works for you then fine. I've never found an eldar army good on the defensive myself  

I learned the hard way (piles, PILES of corpses) that Guardians just cannot be used for frontal assaults and had to adapt tactics.

My primary Eldar army is Ulthwé, but for playtest purposes I stick to the standard Biel-Tan list. Hence the dominance of Guardians in the list, I had sufficient numbers of Aspects painted up earlier this year but gave them all away as a wedding gift, some 5000+ points of Saim-Hann including sufficient Aspects for 4 (Biel-Tan!) Warhosts.

Now I´m down to 4 stands of ´Hawks and a lot of unpainted plastic again...

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Guardians are definitively support or defensive assault troops. The no cover when you charge means few non specialist troops in Epic can take the damage that sloshes around in assaults.

Certainly be interesting to see, I was starting to wonder if a load of demons and a bunch of summoning formations was the way to go (so sustained threat up until the last turn). So stuff like Icon bearers are out for either more demons or more summoning. So I await with baited breath.

Still though it would take a lot to get me to not consider two terminator formations - the cheap hit the deathstrikes one and the (probably turn 2) alpha strike one.

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General Plumer, 191x

Yep, my ulthwe never leave the storm serpent without their wraithguard shields to hide behind  

Still, for the cost of a Guardian Warhost + Wraithguard you can get a full mixed Aspect Warhost, which can be boosted with an Exarch or 2, has Ini 1+ and saves all around.

With Wraithguard, I always seem to take more hits than WG, autokilling helpless Guardians, which ruins resolution. Those Aspects are just much better for Engages.

With Ulthwé, I field a Black Guardian Warhost with the Seer Council mounted in Wave Serpents, using the APCs as shields.

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"Cheap" along the lines of:

285 4x C-Terms, Pact?

They break so easily, often arriving with a BM from teleporting, appearing within spitting distance guarantees maximum return fire, with some creativity opponents can turn their deploy zone into a veritable teleporter deathtrap, not only denying space through clever positioning but also having a garrison anchored on the Blitz just waiting to add a few more BM to break you.

I´ve become quite cautious after losing too many battles and 1/3rd of my army early via teleports gone wrong. They are murderous when all goes well, but there are obvious precautions against them and also a lot of luck is involved. Teleporting 2 formations and needing to activate both, with BM, is risky business. Better wait for T2, keep the threat and formation intact and do something throughout the game.

T1 teleports often have to face the attention of half the enemy army in that turn, simply because of proximity they are a much better target than the approaching rest of your forces. As I said, I prefer a more cautious approach and overloading defences on T2.

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Both are 'intruiging' lists, and not what we have seen fielded over here in tournaments - but then tournament armies are quite subjective in nature and depend upon the strategies of the player. In fact I'd go so far as to suggest that being able to field wildly different armies with moderate success would be a sign of balance while if the army consistently wins or loses despite the composition then it suggests a lack of balance.

Black Legion
I agree that Termies need to be 5-6 strong as a minimum. For races other than Space Marines I have found '5' is a golden number for Epic formations to counter the various ways that you can get BMs - 4 is too weak for the reasons stated (get a BM from teleporting and lose a unit to enemy fire and the formation breaks). This is why Oblits are so usefull even without the AA capability.

Glad to see you trying the 'armoured assault' company again - try to keep it in cover until needed to avoid being picked off by the Eldar Falcons and long-range titan fire. I would even toy with giving it pact for extra bite - though there are a lot of obvious compromises in that approach.

On balance I would probably swap a flier for a second assault company for longer range fire. 'Unmolested', Eldar AA is horribly powerfull - but very weak and so easily supressed by even a single hit. Equally this would also provide a further ground formation to capture objectives.

I have very mixed feelings about Forlorn Hopes. IMO their main use is as a screen against teleporters / air assaults, but I think they are too weak as a '4' strong formation (see above) - so I would tend to get them Rhinos as well as pact. This also can provide some of the mobility needed in the later stages of the game - which means that, rather than being placed out front as their name suggests, I would tend to keep them as a second line defensive or supporting formation.

We seem to be evolving a general rule of thumb about Daemons and 'pact'. You should have 3-4 per pact for optimum use. So, 12 would seem ample - just make sure you throw '6's rather than '1's this time

Eldar
Personally I have never got good use out of Eldar titans. They always attract too much attention and are brittle without their holofield save. But then again I am perhaps too aggressive a player to make best use of them At most I would field Revenants for better overall firepower and speed, saving 100 points.

The Wraithship is an intruiging choice for an alpha strike capability. A one-shot wonder, personally I would use the points elsewhere though they have been used to good effect in UK tournaments, especially with planetfalling Vampires.

Only '4' Rangers!! Have you ever considered putting '8' in a Vampire - or even two vampires. A completely wacky idea - until you find youself crossfired by snipers!

Like others I find the three guardian formations a 'courageous' choice. Unarmoured and on foot, this does seem to be doomed - unless you can make good use of the terrain. In most UK games where a wraithgate is fielded, the T&H objectives in the Eldar table-half are sidelined 15 cms from the Eldar baseline which would effectively place 1/5 of this army 'out-of-play' - let the Eldar defend that objective as much as they like while the BL concentrate on the other two. Worse, we allow the gate to be blocked by a formation occupying it - so a different strategy might be to place the T&H objectives on the centreline behind terrain where a moderately fast formation can march onto it and Eldar fire is blocked. This tactic might well force the Eldar to activate it sooner than they might desire to putting the weak guardians in harms way, or alternatively force them to use the Blitz as the gate - sidelining the guardians and to some extent the Phantom as well.

IMO, the only reason why this tactic might enjoy moderate succes here is because the opponent is both slower and has fewer activations, possibly allowing the Eldar to retain the potential to assault the guardians out of the gate - which is their 'one-trick' albeit quite a good one. If you want to retain that strategy, I would consider cutting the support platforms saving 150 points.

Personally, I have had reasonable success using Storm-Serpents to deliver 'armoured' guardian formations with Wraith Guards and even Wraith Lords (which provide cover to their weaker bretheren). Yes it is 300 or even 475 points, but they can launch an alpha-strike into the opponents deployment zone and the WL can be fearsome against enemy WE. But you do need two SS for redundancy as poeple have a nasty habit of targetting them.

Equally, this is one occasion that you might want an Autarch to ensure that the SS assault succeeds - but that starts the army off down a very different path from the design / strategy you have here.

However, if you are feeling 'lucky' you could convert the Support platform points and titan points into a Storm Serpent to provide a strategic alternative, or possibly consider providing Wave Serpents for one of the Guardians.

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Some other thoughts:-
1) What are the strategies you envisage either side using?
2) How important is the Strategic initiative to those strategies?
3) Is this a 'solo' game like I presume the others were?

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Like losing initiative and having your opponents Stompa Mob turn your Termies into a fine paste :-)

I love them because of this though. For every time I cut an opponent to ribbons there is a time where I get stomped in return.

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Thanks for the exhaustive reply!

1.

BL:
Garrison Warlord, use it as the anchor for a spearhead with the Decimator, Armoured-Assault and Raptors. All-out attack in T2 with the Chosen teleporting unless they have found a weakness in T1. Keep an eye on knocking out the Falcon Troupes, with some luck this will shut down enemy AA.

Eldar:
Knock out the Decimator, then switch to Armoured. There´s plenty of firepower for that. Defend the Wraithgate, if BL overruns it the Nightspinners and Falcons will lack the depth to operate effectively. Flank with a Windrider Host, the FH should not be able to stop it.


2.

BL: Winning initiative on T2 is absolutely critical, as always. Occasionally the incoming fire is not sufficient to stop the allmighty assault or is botched by failing activations, but usually BL gets beaten up badly when things go wrong. That´s why I aim at redundancy / multiple threats.


3.

It is.
I´d usually be spamming internet forums and playing Supreme Commander 2 and/or Combat Mission via email in the evenings, but my SC2 opponent is moving house and I´m plain bored...

Plus, I´ve got an extra room in my place since I quit TV last year, that´s where my gaming table has been sitting unmolested for weeks, can´t allow that. Warphead is planning to come over with his Siegers this weekend, so I´ll get a "proper" battle going as well!


The armoured assault formation just got hit early, nothing to do against those pesky Hellstrikes, there was no terrain to hide behind in the last game, at least on that flank.

Dropping the HellBlades would leave me 100 points short of another Decimator+Desecrator, I´d have to drop a Defiler and a LD to make it, or go pure Decimator for a LD. However, the list is supposed to be balanced, and I would not got that light on AA if I did not know what I was facing.

I always go for the maximum number of Forlorn Hopes, BL with its few activations has problems screening against flank marches, and it will take the enemy at least minimal effort to shift them, more if a couple of daemons are present.

Agree on the LD numbers, that´s my aim as well.


Eldar Titans: The Warlock is a true terror, my "tactics" with this monster are to shove it straight at the enemy and see them scatter like chaff!


Seriously, not only is it a well-protected assault monster, but with it in support (easy to set up with Eldar consolidation) the next 1-2 Windrider Engages are sure wins as well. I´ve seen them turn entire flanks in 2 turns, you just have to keep making Holofield saves.

That´s actually why I´m looking at a Phantom here, I´ve only seen one fielded when we did a Lugganath playtest with variant weapons, and I´m curious whether the additional 100 points for a Warlock are always worth it.

I´ve been subjected to Wraithship-bombardments, IMO they are the best orbital option around, in a tournament where you might face 1-3 horde armies they´ll make opponents quite nervous. Even against BL they should be worth it, though I´ll have to randomize the coordinates for the strike (see below).

4 Rangers as that´s all I could fit in!

Guardians: I never had difficulties getting them into cover. One formation got slaughtered in the earlier game when they got too bold and tried to occupy an objective and were assaulted before they made it into cover, but barring such mistakes they perform. And +50 points for 3 more units and 3x MW5+ is a steal IMO.

Your thoughts on BL objective placement will be taken into account, I can promise you that!

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