Tactical Command
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Different CSM force structure
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=13477		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  pixelgeek [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:23 am ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
Some thoughts on a different structure for he CSM list. There aren't a lot of formations in the army so there really are only two possible "core" formations

Core
Chaos Marine Retinue
Four CSM stands

Chaos Marine Assault Warband
Four CSM Bike units
(can be upgraded to Raptors for 5 points each)

And there are really only three support formations in the current list. Purchasing one Core formation allows you to purchase one Support formation.

Support
Chaos Terminators
4 Chaos Terminators

Black Legion Armoured Co
Four to Eight vehicles

Black Legion War Engine Squadron
One to three Decimators or Death Wheels. Would still count as part of the Titan/Aircraft cap

The Daemon Pool is its own separate entity. The Titans, aircraft and navy would remain untouched.

In addition to the current Upgrades I would add:
Terminators: Add up to four Terminators for 65 points each
Chaos Marines: Add up to four Chaos Marines or Chaos Marine Bikes for 35 points each
Chaos Warlord: Add a Chaos Warlord to the formation. One Warlord can be made the SC for +50 points.

Formations would still have four upgrades. There is no Forlorn hope as it is just the base CSM Retinue.

You would be able to take more than one Marine and Bike upgrades if you wanted to.

It would let you build more varied, and chaotic, formations with or without Warlords. And also allow you to build some big lumbering formations with piles of Bikes or marines or even Raptors.

Alternatively you keep the SC free but if the SC ever fails a SC Re-roll it is turned into a Spawn and removed from the game
Author:  zombocom [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
This could be an interesting idea. It seems a little like the ork list, with big, mixed mobs.

Very chaotic, but would require a lot of playtesting to balance.

I quite like the SC-spawn idea in theory, though the number of other special rules would have to be cut down to compensate.

How about all cult marine formations as a support choice?

I'm not certain about the possibility of an all Raptor army though...
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
An army composed of formations of four CSM at a time might very well have 20+ activations.
Author:  Miner [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
and the list would then only include core formations and terminators....too much of them to keep it balanced.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
Quote: (Miner @ 07 Sep. 2008, 02:11 )

and the list would then only include core formations and terminators....too much of them to keep it balanced.

And the alternative is?

I'm attempting to build a structure that can still build some of the CSM armies I have.

Mind you I tend not to build armies with nothing but Terminators in them so...
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
There. Fixed :D

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums/ ... 82;t=12019
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
What about scouts with no forlorn hope?
Author:  pixelgeek [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 07 Sep. 2008, 14:10 )

What about scouts with no forlorn hope?

Good point

Probably need a different name for them though
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
Firstly, Thanks for an honest attempt at trying to find an alternative solution to several of the (IMHO) apparent flaws in the list. I like the principle behind the proposal, but obviously there are issues.

1) Could we work backwards a second here, and ask just how many formations we would expect the CSM to field for 3000 points (compared with the Marines)? IMO this may suggest a slight increase in the initial formation size, but lets start with the basic principles

2) To avoid abuse, I would suggest making the Terminators and Raptors 0-1 per retinue, (or even 1-0 per two retinues depending upon the formation sizes). - an even wackier idea might be a ratio comparing the CSM units fielded

3) To compensate for the 'questions' over the BL Initiative and Supreme Commander, give the BL an overall initiative of 2+, but add to the warlord stats that his presence in a formation adds -1 on any initiative dice roll.

4) Given #3, I would suggest reducing the cost of the CSM units appropriately, and making the Warlord / SC an upgrade. Equally, I would increase the number of upgrade slots to '5'. This allows existing 'elite' armies to be fielded or larger, less reliable armies / formations etc. It also has the effect of reducing the BL initiative slightly relative to the more disciplined (IMO) marines
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
Quote: (pixelgeek @ 07 Sep. 2008, 14:49 )

Quote: (Miner @ 07 Sep. 2008, 02:11 )

and the list would then only include core formations and terminators....too much of them to keep it balanced.

And the alternative is?

Take a look at Black Legion's Red Corsairs army list.
Author:  Ginger [ Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
Quote: (pixelgeek @ 07 Sep. 2008, 22:12 )

Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ 07 Sep. 2008, 14:10 )

What about scouts with no forlorn hope?

Good point

Probably need a different name for them though

Are we assuming the current stats here - in effect '4' CSM marines? If so, I see no reason for dropping the current mechanic of 0-1 FH per Retinue. The 0-x mechanic focuses the list back onto those elements that are considered key to the CSM list which has to be a good move. Equally it allows a scalable use of those elements that are potentially better / rarer etc.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
Probably just due to the recent discussions on another thread, but I see a problem with drop-barrage armies.  At ~150 pints per formation you could drop 15 formations on Turn 3.  That's a Deathwind barrage to write home about, followed by a very strong popcorn army taking on a heavily suppressed enemy force.

===

That said, I like the idea of a 4-unit build for something like Alpha Legion, with Cultists as the Core.  Having to buy a 200 point Cultist formation for every 4-unit CSM formation would keep a popcorn drop in control.  I think it would give a better variant than the versions that have been floated so far (including mine).

I think I'll be redoing my AL list...
Author:  rpr [ Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
Quote: (nealhunt @ 08 Sep. 2008, 16:38 )

Probably just due to the recent discussions on another thread, but I see a problem with drop-barrage armies.  At ~150 pints per formation you could drop 15 formations on Turn 3.  That's a Deathwind barrage to write home about, followed by a very strong popcorn army taking on a heavily suppressed enemy force.

Doesn't those spaceships usually have a limit on how many units fit in to be droppable? When combined with 'max 1 spaceship' limitation you hardly get more than 7 drops - which of course is quite a lot, but still..
Author:  dptdexys [ Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
Quote: (rpr @ 09 Sep. 2008, 12:20 )

Quote: (nealhunt @ 08 Sep. 2008, 16:38 )

Probably just due to the recent discussions on another thread, but I see a problem with drop-barrage armies.  At ~150 pints per formation you could drop 15 formations on Turn 3.  That's a Deathwind barrage to write home about, followed by a very strong popcorn army taking on a heavily suppressed enemy force.

Doesn't those spaceships usually have a limit on how many units fit in to be droppable? When combined with 'max 1 spaceship' limitation you hardly get more than 7 drops - which of course is quite a lot, but still..

The despoiler can drop upto 40 units so at 4 strong that could drop 10 formations but only on turn 3.

In the BL list as it is now the limiting factor for high number of drop formations (as in the all scout drop Marine army)is forlorn hope are limited to equal the number of retinues in the army.

If the CSM retinue was dropoped to 4 strong plus upgrades this would then open up the drop army problem that was thought to come with the Marine scout one.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Sep 09, 2008 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Different CSM force structure
The principle of the CSM list is to make bigger rather than smaller formations - which in itself resolves the "scout barrage" abuse as you just cannot easily get 4-5 formations into a 20 slot spaceship. in a 3000 point army. (For larger armies though it could jus possibly make an entrance??)

Spitballing here, could we suggest that the basic Retinue is two blocks of four units with a cost for 4x CSM, 4x Havocs, 4 cultists etc? Add in the 0-1 per x retinues for "support" formations and you are a long way there.

Alternatively you could specify the initial block of '4' must have another 2-8 units at 'x' per type.
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