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Black Legion playtest changes
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=13462		 Page 1 of 14
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
Here is a document with the basic changes for playtesting. This is a fairly conservative list (nothing too suprising in there). I know there are a few options that might not make some people happy, but nothing is set in stone at this point.

I'll have a look at producing a whole new army list with all of the changes integrated but that'll have to wait for another time.
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
On my initial look I wouldn't pay 85 points for the new obilterator stats and if they can't be added to terminators I'd remove the teleport.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
A fantastic step in the right direction.

If Obliterators have lost their AA shots, then there's no reason to deny them to Terminator formations IMHO.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 05 Sep. 2008, 08:47 )

Here is a document with the basic changes for playtesting.

PDF version for those that don't have Word.
Author:  Wisp [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
Why wouldn't obliterators be addable to terminators? Seems like it's just a name change.

Anyhow, my thoughts on the list. It looks pretty good to me, overall. However, I do have to agree with Mephiston on the obliterators. Why the points increase when they lost AA and got their good combat values replaced with extra attacks? Wouldn't 75 points for the new profile be good enough? As is, I would pick more terminators for terminator formations instead (the AA was worth it previously, now I don't see why I'd take them) and would just go for something else for retinues, as obliterators cannot be transported.

New defilers are the one thing I really dislike. They slow down rhinos, they can't be teleported or drop podded, they prevent garrisoning unless they're alone (in which case they are the only vehicle target in the formation and not too hard to kill). They've lost the barrage gun and their good firefight and gained infiltration. Doesn't sound that good to me. What's the reasoning behind giving them infiltrate, anyhow? Anything background-related at all? Personally, I think a way to fix them would've been putting them as core units into the armoured company. That would've created a unique and useful formation, kind of like in Lost & Damned. Speaking of Lost & Damned, if you carry out these changes, I'm pretty sure defilers will have to change in that list as well. Leaving an expensive formation of four fragile close combatants, which are outclassed by khornite engines. And removing an interesting and useful (albeit a tad expensive) artillery unit that's more resilient than basilisks and a nasty target for engages.

And what's the reasoning behind those desecrators? An AA-tank got added in, so these guys look a little lost. Apart from that, they suffer from the exact same movement-issues defilers do, except these can't even reach combat.

And finally, the ferals. Compared to a warhound with a mega-bolter and inferno gun, these have fixed forward on their barrage weapon, do 1.66 hits in a firefight instead of 1.5. Is the 0.16 hits in firefights and the different gun (ap4+/at4+ instead of ap3+/at5+) really worth 25 points extra, or should they be given a discount?

Anyhow, other than those points, I like it. Sounds like it's time to convert some AA-tanks and maybe even taking a greater daemon would be a neat idea.  :smile:
Author:  pixelgeek [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
Quote: (Mephiston @ 05 Sep. 2008, 09:03 )

On my initial look I wouldn't pay 85 points for the new obilterator stats and if they can't be added to terminators I'd remove the teleport.

It is pointless in terms of this list but it should be included in case anyone wants to come up with another Chaos list that can use the teleport ability.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
Quote: (Wisp @ 05 Sep. 2008, 09:49 )

Why wouldn't obliterators be addable to terminators?

I'd suggest that you check out the other threads in this section for the debate on the issue.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 05 Sep. 2008, 08:47 )

This is a fairly conservative list (nothing too suprising in there). I know there are a few options that might not make some people happy, but nothing is set in stone at this point.

I'd lose the Chaos Bomber until we get a chance to discuss the topic in detail. I don't know that it fits into the Epic scheme as no-one else has a similar aircraft
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
I'd lose the Chaos Bomber until we get a chance to discuss the topic in detail. I don't know that it fits into the Epic scheme as no-one else has a similar aircraft

Noone else has dared to try it!

This is the perfect place to test a heavy bomber.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
Yes. It is a playtest list. So nothing is set in stone. Where else would you put a super-heavy bomber?
Author:  scarik [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
The Harbringer doesn't bug me any, in the absence of real artillery its role is obvious, and its not as powerful as 4 Imperial Marauders. Its 2+ Initiative is liability in a 1+ list as is.

I agree Oblits don't look very interesting for Terminators at 85 points with no AA. Retinues can use them to create a brutal garrison force still though.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
Not considering cropping the save on the fighters to zero?

Any way for purely list building reasons at 3000 points to get the fighters to be 150 for three (or less)? Reason being with extremely limited AA these chaps are gold dust as it were and nigh compulsory.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
I'm not sure why anyone would take Obliterators at those stats even at 75 points.  Much like Raptors/Bikes, I can't see a reason that anyone would ever choose Obliterators before Havocs for the same points.  Havocs are just better - more units, more firepower, same shots to kill, transport options, vastly better FF and only marginally worse CC.  In a mixed formation, everything around the Fearless units will be hacked down anyway so that's not much benefit in terms of formation durability.
Author:  Dave [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
As much as it was talked about on the other tread, no where in LI's doc does it say that obliterators aren't in the Chaos Terminators formation. Could we get a clarification oh army champ?
Author:  Mephiston [ Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion playtest changes
Quote: (Dave @ 05 Sep. 2008, 22:10 )

As much as it was talked about on the other tread, no where in LI's doc does it say that obliterators aren't in the Chaos Terminators formation. Could we get a clarification oh army champ?

Good spot..... still not going to take any  :p
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