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Black Legion review
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=12472		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
So as I'm taking the reins, time to see exactly what the state of play is here.

I'll go through some of the older threads, but it's good to start with a clean slate. I can open new threads for certain aspects that might require it (such as the aircraft.)

So: what are the issues that are perceived to exist with the Black Legion?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
My six points:


1 - The prevailence of non-scaling 0-x limits, meaning that the list is only balanced at 3kpts.
2 - The Free Supreme Commander / Free characters, both of which should cost points.
3 - Flyers, stats don't match models.
4 - Feral Titans, and to a lesser extent Decimators, are too good.
5 - Greater Daemons are too expensive
6 - Obliterators are slightly too cheap / slightly too good.



In addition, the list itself is very plain, and could use some unit pictures at the least (Choma has a reformatted prettied-up version hanging around).
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
I'd divide the issues into those that could do with being addressed in the initial tournament changes and those that can wait until the summer review.

Feral titans - widely perceived as overpowered, perhaps drop IC

Death Wheels - should probably be in titan allocation to prevent WE overload

Decimator - mixed reviews over effectiveness butr could probably lose fearless and downgrade FF

Obliterators - widely seen as too good even though they force the CSM to walk - perhaps drop weapons to 2x

Greater Daemons - need to be easier/cheaper to summon

In game terms I don't see that much more than that needs doing initially but some people think-

Free leaders/free SC - I'm not convinced this is a problem

Popcorn formations - minimum size units of raptors, chosen being used, I've never found this to work as being an assault orientated army they lose their effectiveness

If we want to reflect 40k and the other lists/models-

Defiler - does it need to be changed to reflect current 40k codex

Vindicators - do they need to be added to reflect current 40kcodex

LR, predator, dreads - follow Hena's Marine lists

Aircraft - change name to reflect FW model, numerous stat proposals

More longterm  or less pressing issues-

Is the daemon summoning system the right one?
For LatD as well- do Khorne units in general need a boost?
Daemon price - too powerful? I like the french approach of losing TK for MW and gaining Inspiring
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review

(Evil and Chaos @ Apr. 29 2008,16:43)
QUOTE
(Choma has a reformatted prettied-up version hanging around).

Email sent.
Author:  Magarch [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
- Daemon summoning system is a poor one. It needs to be revamped in all Chaos lists.

- Chaos Terminators and Obliterators are too cheap for what they do. AA on Obliterators is also very (too much) powerfull ; it would be a good thing to put the AA on another thing than reinforced armored Infantry.

- Raptors need to cost their right price.

- Havocs would be nice if they were an upgrade of Chaos Space Marines rather than adding another four units, and doing the same with Cultist Marines.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
Overall, keep in mind that the army list is about big formations, CSM hordes.

For the "Tournament Mods" I'd say...

Raptors go up 5 points
Chosen go up 5 points
Obliterators go up 10 points
Daemon Prince goes to MW instead of TK on all attacks
Assault Company moves to Titan/Air
Ferals go up 25 points

Greater Daemons drop 25 points
Ravager drops 25-50 points

Most of my point justification is here.

===

For the long-term, more detailed revisions and/or alternate lists I'd say all of the above, with the following changes or additions...

Ferals/Decimators split up special weapon abilities (MW/IC/Disrupt) and adjust points as needed.

The summoning system could stand an overhaul.

Defilers stats should be revised.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
Perhabs another army list layout like i have developed here:
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=12071
Author:  Irondeath [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
As I?ve posted before:

Here is my take:

Greater Daemons:

I occasionally use them in air assault/infantry focus lists to get a stab at enemy AV/WE, but it is a huge gamble. IF you don?t summon them when exactly when you need them, the formation positioning for them is usually toast. A Lord of Change recently won a battle for me all, due to saving like 10+ hits without a scratch while overunning a flank with the attached shooty LatD coven, but that?s both unseen before and fielding cultists.

Overall, in the BL list, GDs are just a little too hard to get, it?s not the price but rather the uncertainty. 8 is one summoning point to many, 7 would do.

As there has been criticism of the summoning system, I think it is, all said and done, okay and balanced. Notice how no one is complaining about Lesser Daemons anymore?


"Free" Chaos Lords:

My suggestion: BL retinue goes to 250 + Chaos Lord upgrade +25 or 0-1 Chaos Warlord +75

(and price IG Comissars at +25, but that?s another topic)


Bikers:

Could use a -25 decrease, they are slightly too expensive for what they can do in addition, they are ?overshadowed by the plain more useful Raptors.

Ravager:

It?s weaponry isnt?s worth 650 points. I can?t even speak from gameplay experience as on this matter on this issue as it obviously sucks...

For the same cost as an Imperial Reaver, you get shorter range on 2 weapons (only 45cm Death Storms instead of 60cm Turbo Lasers). The Doomburner is something of a sawed-off Volcano Cannon with half the range and only TK(1) which has gained Ignore Cover in the exchange.

But: The Ravager has a Battle Head adding 2xFF attacks and a Tail with 75cm AP4+/AT4+ shooting and +1CC attack.

IMO this equals either the shorter range on the Death Storms or the measly stats of the Doomburner, but not both.

I?d suggest upping the Death Storms to 60cms (which would affect the Lord of Battles in the LatD list as well, which is fine and would need its cost increased by +25) or changing the Doomburner by increasing TK(1) to (TK3), which would also give the Ravager a distinct role in the army as mid-range anti-WE platform.


Deathwheel

I love mine. Their shooting isn?t great, but both in a (supported) assault as well as supports they do nicely. The crit is nasty, though, and I?ve seen plenty of DWs taking it.

Chaos Air


Hellblades are okay with the revised stats, Hell Talons suffer from formation size and a weak save. In a larger formation, they just _might_ merit 100 Pts a piece, but in a formation of 2 they are overpriced. I love the models though, and field them whenever possible, but hardly for bang-for-buck.

Chaos Armour

Both the Pred and the LR are slightly too expensive IMO. As moving away from 25 points intervals is .. fiddly I?d suggest something like:

Armoured Company:

250 4x Chaos Land Raider
or
175 4x Chaos Predator

plus the usual upgrades.


With regards to Obliterators, the old review thread IMO demonstrated that, while it seems a steal @75 points, list restrictions (e.g. adding Oblits to already expensive formations, scarce activations in BL armies) effectively limit them to 2-3 in a 3k army.

The main issue with them I believe to be the last-man-standing issue, with them being Fearless and 4+RA, they are commonly the last unit left from a broken formation, while being fully capable of summoning daemons to get back into the fight when rallied. Perhaps tieing the Pact to a stand might help, say the Chaos Lord, Sorceror or Icon Bearer as applicable.

On the minimal changes front, cutting MW from the Feral might be necessary, with Jervis sinking the AT-to-AP MW column shift I believe the Decimator to be okay, it is so damn slow after all.

Yes, it kills SM but with their in-built mobilty they have no business camping near one either, and the Rhinos should easily survive now.
Author:  Magarch [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review

(Irondeath @ Apr. 29 2008,19:11)
QUOTE
Notice how no one is complaining about Lesser Daemons anymore?

Notice how many people truly use daemons in a Black Legion army ? Daemon summoning is currently crap ; it's a poor attempt to do the same as in W40k while forgetting Epic A. is a game about formations and not units. Daemons should have their own formations and be summoned via a variant of the Teleport rule ; would be simpler and give them true justice to them rather than "perfect meat shields for pricey marines".
Author:  Kleomenes [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review

(Magarch @ Apr. 29 2008,19:33)
QUOTE

(Irondeath @ Apr. 29 2008,19:11)
QUOTE
Notice how no one is complaining about Lesser Daemons anymore?

Notice how many people truly use daemons in a Black Legion army ? Daemon summoning is currently crap ; it's a poor attempt to do the same as in W40k while forgetting Epic A. is a game about formations and not units. Daemons should have their own formations and be summoned via a variant of the Teleport rule ; would be simpler and give them true justice to them rather than "perfect meat shields for pricey marines".

In your opinion.
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
Nearly every tournament list I've seen has around 10 daemons - and use them both offensively and defensively
Author:  Irondeath [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review

(Magarch @ Apr. 29 2008,20:33)
QUOTE

(Irondeath @ Apr. 29 2008,19:11)
QUOTE
Notice how no one is complaining about Lesser Daemons anymore?

Notice how many people truly use daemons in a Black Legion army ? Daemon summoning is currently crap ; it's a poor attempt to do the same as in W40k while forgetting Epic A. is a game about formations and not units. Daemons should have their own formations and be summoned via a variant of the Teleport rule ; would be simpler and give them true justice to them rather than "perfect meat shields for pricey marines".

Well, I do.

Though it?s mostly Daemonic Beasts, that Infiltrator abiltiy is just sooo handy vs. IG.

Meat Shield is really a secondary consideration to me, assault boost being the primary. Seperate formations would open a can of worms, I suggest you cook up some house rules and test them to see what I mean.

In he long run, there are other issues though: With E:As predominance of FF over CC, Berzerkers and Bloodletters are the weakest choices in their respective categories.

Since Bloodletters can, however, be substituted by Daemonic Beasts if they can?t contact the enemy (and DBs look suspiciously like khornate Fleshhounds), it is less of a problem with them.

Berzerkers are underpowered though, ?and could use either 2xCC4+ or the more powerful ? Infiltrator ability.

All in the long run, of course.
Author:  Mephiston [ Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
2 changes for me

Feral's to lose IC which I think is better than a 25pt hike and maybe Oblits to lose Fearless.

I always take lesser deamons and generally use them on assualting formations. I agree that the greater deamon needs to be less of a gamble if they are to be seen regularly.
Author:  pixelgeek [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:23 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review

(Steve54 @ Apr. 29 2008,08:51)
QUOTE
Obliterators - widely seen as too good even though they force the CSM to walk - perhaps drop weapons to 2x

This isn't exactly the case.

After much prodding and discussion the issues isn't Obliterators in general but Obliterators in Chosen formations.

Its a great example of why people need to provide examples of the issues they are discussing since I can't recall a single example of people complaining about Obliterators in other formations... mostly because people don't take them often or don't take them in high numbers due to the price

For their price Obliterators are much more effective in Chosen formations and they are way too expensive to take in large numbers in other formations.

So the problem that needs to be resolved is not Obliterators but how to balance them in Chosen formations.

My suggestion would be to simply remove them as an upgrade option for the Chosen.

LI should also take this as a very clear example of the sort of digging that is often needed to get to the core of a situation.

People bitch and complain about "obliterators' when it is in fact a very specific usage of the unit that is the problem. I would assume that a lot of the other cases that get referenced here may be similar.

Good luck with trying to wrestle some useful data out of this crowd... it can be tough but you often get to the core of the matter after a while :-)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion review
After much prodding and discussion the issues isn't Obliterators in general but Obliterators in Chosen formations.

That's your opinion, and lots of people strongly disagree.

My suggestion would be to simply remove them as an upgrade option for the Chosen.

That doesn't fix them being simply too good for their cost.

People bitch and complain

sigh
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