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Death Guard discussion

 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 8:14 pm 
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Death Guard version 2.0

Fairly minor changes, but I've removed quite a few of the formations and integrated them. Possessed are gone. Armoured Companies are cut, replaced with the possibility of adding predators and land raiders to other formations.






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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:50 pm 
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My first comment is...

Holy Snikeys!  That's completely illegible in gray-scale.

More comments once my eyeballs have stopped bleeding from the strain.

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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:54 pm 
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I'm finding it pretty hard to read the titan stats in colour too.

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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:17 pm 
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First off, if you're using MSWord for the underlying software before you pdf-icize it, I'd like a copy of the word docs to use on some of my army lists.  I could build it but if you have it handy it would save me a lot of time and I would be grateful.

On the list... I think it looks pretty good.

Stubborn - The text doesn't address what happens when a broken formation is assaulted.

Transport Upgrade - It looks like nothing in the list actually has this at the moment.

Festering Death - I'd kill the template and go with BP.  4BP/30cm should be pretty close in effectiveness to template/AP3/AT5 - a little more area and range, with a slightly lower AP value.  Of course, that causes problems with multiple BP weapons, so that would need some sort of resolution...

Should the titans have Nurgle's Rot?

Overall, I still think they look a bit on the tough side on paper, but it's close enough that I'd say only playtesting will tell for sure.

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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:04 am 
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Why does Death Guard field worse plague marines than Black Legion (stubborn instead of fearless)?

They should be fearless (or every (yeah, Noise Marines too) cult marine should lose fearless, not just Death Guard). Stubborn is unnecessary special rule. Plague Marines in Death Guard should be exactly as in Black Legion (or tougher, not weaker).

So:

1) All Plague Marines back to Fearless. (Terminators too, but that should be obvious (if rank and file troops are fearles then Chosen Veterans shoud be too))
2) Return Armoured Companies.
3) Contagion Tower to 4 for 325 (just as in LatD).
4) Plague Reapers could be nice.
5) Legible stats for titans. Repugnant should have 3 proper weapons (and maybe tail?).




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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:51 pm 
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Why does Death Guard field worse plague marines than Black Legion (stubborn instead of fearless)?


Word.

All Cult Marines should be fearless, always.

Just never forget that not all members of the World Eaters, Death Guard, and Emperor's Children are Cult Marines. All the Thousand Sons are, but they're mostly dust anyway.

Many of them certainly are, and for thematic purposes most of the formations available should be otherwise just use the Black Legion list and say 'all formations are dedicated to Nurgle'

I think LordI's EC list includes normal CSMs as a small formation, its a good idea and one that should go in all the Cult lists.

And for the love of Pete, remove fearless from the transports, I know they feel like they could be fearless, but they can't duck so even if they remain calm/crazed in the face of fire they still lose bolts and treads et al and no amount of personal fortitude solves that.

Now you can make the arguement that some vehicles are daemonically possessed, but certainly not all or even most of them.

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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:40 pm 
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Quote: (scarik @ 18 Jul. 2008, 15:51 )

Why does Death Guard field worse plague marines than Black Legion (stubborn instead of fearless)?


Word.

All Cult Marines should be fearless, always.

All-Fearless lists are problematic for several reasons.

The most obvious is that they strain the mechanics of the game.  It can handle it, but many standby tactics like overwhelming assaults or picking away at broken formations to finish them off completely disappear.

It is also relatively easy for a decent-sized Fearless formation (like CSM infantry formations) to block fairly large portions of the board by spreading out on withdrawal instead of actually retreating.  This feels "gamey" to many people.

That leads us to the second problem - all-Fearless lists are perceived by many as less fun.  There is drama in trying to hunt down the remnants of a formation before they can escape or before they can rally.  There is drama in an assault to drive the enemy off of an objective.  Those things go away when everything is Fearless.

The predominance of Fearless had probably been the single biggest complaint about the Cult CSM lists.  Stubborn is an attempt to give them some of the added psychological durability they are supposed to have without going for full Fearless.

And for the love of Pete, remove fearless from the transports, I know they feel like they could be fearless, but they can't duck so even if they remain calm/crazed in the face of fire they still lose bolts and treads et al and no amount of personal fortitude solves that.

This is more an issue of game play mechanics.  Due to the predominance of Fearless, non-Fearless units tend to die quick and quiet.  Without Fearless, every "hackdown" hit can only be applied to the transports.

That said, I think the Deathguard might be okay with that.  The reduction of their transports fits with their "limited transport" mentality, so having non-Fearless/non-Stubborn transports might be okay for them.  Personally, I decided that it did fit well with the flavor and feel of the Thousand Sons.

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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:11 pm 
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All cult Marines should be Fearless? Why do you say that? Because they are Fearless in 40K? Going back to their original inceptions, only the Mark of Slaanesh provides any real kind of immunity to psychology. Therefore, only the Emperor's Children should have a real everything-is-Fearless theme to it.

Looking to Fantasy, Khorne troops have Frenzy (which grants limited immunity to psychology) and Nurgle cause Fear themselves (meaning they are immune to Fear but not other psychology). Tzeench troops have no special fearlessness. In 40K, of course, the Tzeentch troops are under the rubric of arhiman and therefore are Fearless automata, oddly making them somewhat at odds with the tzeentchian archetype.

In 40K, therefore, it does make some sense that all four cults have claim to Fearless. However, if we are staying true to the background themes, it would be good to make the Slaanesh army "more Fearless" than the Khorne or Nurgle.

The issue I have with making the core cult marines Fearless and everything else Stubborn is that it produces the same oddity as with the current Chaos Space Marine codex. The core grunts are Fearless while your elite Terminators are not? If Death Guard marines are Fearless then Death Guard Terminators should be doubly so! So I'd rather just make them all Stubborn.

Nurgle and Khorne marines are neither as insanely uncaring of mortal danger as the Children nor mindless automata such as the Sons. I think it's okay that they might be Fearless in the BL list (obviously the BL cultists are absolute nutters) while the actual World Eaters and Death Guard are a little - not much - saner and their line troops aren't as fanatically Fearless.


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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:15 pm 
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Neal you cleverly took half of my argument to refute. The point I was making is that Plague Marines should be Fearless, but Deathgaurd shouldn't be.

Lord I, I love that you want to get into the fluff of the Armies, but one unit should have 1 set of stats. It doesn't matter where you find those Berserkers, they should be the same.

Fearless in Epic also doesn't really mean fearless, or immune to psychology, it means 'immune to blast markers'

Fearless troops don't rout, they don't back down, they don't become disorganized.

The problem with all fearless lists is that Fearless digs deeply into the core rules, rips them out and then says 'ok, let's play'

Its an awful rule, especially the hackdown part. Hell, Noise Marines are liable to stop fighting and revel in the feel of your chainsword sawing their head off... how are they immune to hackdowns exactly?

Berserkers would rather kill themselves than flee.

Thousand sons have no choice in the matter at all, they will run or not, but if ordered to run they can be hacked apart if the Sorcerer breaks.

Only Death Guard are liable to keep their heads on straight, they aren't scared of anything, and their dark humor and incredible toughness are to thank. If anyone should resist hackdowns its these guys.

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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:17 pm 
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Quote: (nealhunt @ 18 Jul. 2008, 08:40 )

All-Fearless lists are problematic for several reasons.

Not to sound glib but perhaps the answer is to not have an army list that is composed of Fearless units?

There is nothing to say that a Deathguard army wouldn't have normal CSM troops in it as well. Also nothing to say that the majority of them wouldn't be renegade CSM or Nurgle affiliated CSM troops and that the elite of the army would be Deathguard and DG Terminators.

Make the DGs and the DG Terminators core choices and require the player to purchase two support choices per core. Or reverse it. Call them Elite, call the Support formations core formations and allow a player one Elite for every two Core choices.

The curretn Chaos codex talks about not all CSM troops becoming Plague Marines so it seems likely that a Death Guard force would have troops that were Nurglish but not Plague Marines.

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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:23 pm 
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Right, what PG and Hena just said, they seem much more concise and less irritable than I do on the matter.  :)

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 Post subject: Death Guard discussion
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:41 pm 
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Quote: (scarik @ 18 Jul. 2008, 10:23 )

Right, what PG and Hena just said, they seem much more concise and less irritable than I do on the matter.  :)

Thats got to be a first for me.

Can we all note this down in a calendar somewhere please?  :laugh:

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