Warphead will be coming over to my place on Sunday bringing his beautiful Cthonian Siegemasters.

(I would post a link but this forum keeps messing up the URL)

Anyway, my chaotic masters have decreed that they would look even better as burning wreckage and torn corpses, so I´ll pit my Black Legion CSM against them. I´m supposed to come up with a "balanced tourney-army" rather than a "Siegemaster-killer" list.

So Decimators and Ferals are out, I´d have to proxy them anyway, and this wouldn´t do those pretty Cthonians justice, would it?

So, I´ve coughed up 6 lists I can comfortably field, comment away!

Ravager Gamble

25 Ravager BTS
200 HellTalons

555 Chaos Terminators (x4), DP (winged), Icon, Pact, 2x Oblits, (Khorne)
475 Armoured Coy: 3xDefiler, 4x Vindicator, Stalker
450 BL Ret, DP (Warlord), Icon, Pact, Stalker, (Nurgle)
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact´, (Nurgle)
325 Bike Coy + Pact, (Khorne)

220 Daemon Pool: 11x LD

3000 Points, 7 Activations

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Balanced MkII


200 HellBlades
200 HellTalons

435 Chaos Terminators (x4), DP (winged), Icon, Pact (Khorne)
625 Armoured Coy: 3xDefiler, 4x Vindicator, 2x Land Raider, Stalker
400 Armoured Coy: 2x Land Raider, 3x Vindicator, 1x Predator, Stalker
400 BL Ret, DP (Warlord), Icon, Pact, (Nurgle)
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact´, (Nurgle)
325 Bike Coy + Pact, (Khorne)

260 Daemon Pool: 13x LD

2995 Points, 8 Activations

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Genghis Khorne


200 HellTalons
200 HellBlades

325 Bike Coy + Pact, (Khorne)
325 Bike Coy + Pact, (Khorne)
325 Bike Coy + Pact, (Khorne)
485 Chaos Terminators (x4), DP (winged), Icon, Pact, Champion, (Khorne)
575 Armoured Coy: 2xDefiler, 3x Vindicator, 2x Land Raider, Stalker
275 Armoured Coy: 1x Land Raider, 3x Vindicator, Stalker

280 Daemon Pool: 14x LD

2990 Points, 8 Activations

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Breakthrough Lesser Daemon Wave

800 Banelord
200 HellTalons

400 BL Ret, DP (Warlord), Icon, Pact, Champ (Nurgle)
350 BL Ret, Icon, Pact, (Nurgle)
350 BL Ret, Icon, Pact, (Nurgle)
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact´, (Nurgle)
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact´, (Nurgle)
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact´, (Nurgle)

440 Daemon Pool 22x LD

3000 Points, 8 Activations

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Armoured Breakthrough

Armoured Breakthrough

625 Armoured Coy: 2x Land Raider, 4x Vindicator, 2x Defiler, 1x Desecrator
525 Armoured Coy: 3x Land Raider, 3x Vindicator, 2x Predator, Stalker
350 Armoured Coy: 2x Land Raider, 1x Vindicator, 2x Predator, Stalker
325 Armoured Coy: 3x Land Raider, 2x Predator  
400 BL Ret, DP (Warlord), Icon, Pact, Champ (Nurgle)
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact, (Nurgle)
325 Bike Coy + Pact, (Khorne)


300 Daemon Pool 15x LD

3000 Points, 7 Activations

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Breakthrough Greater Daemon Wave

200 HellBlades

485 Chaos Terminators (x4), DP (winged), Icon, Pact, Champion, (Khorne)
450 BL Ret, DP (Warlord), Icon, Pact, Champ (Nurgle)
400 BL Ret, Icon, Pact, Champ (Khorne)
475 BL Ret, Icon, Pact, Desecrator, Champ (Nurgle)
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact´, (Nurgle)
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact´, (Nurgle)
150 Forlorn Hope, Pact´, (Nurgle)


540 Daemon Pool 2xGD 17x LD

3000 Points, 8 Activations

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Cor, wot a lot of choice!

Ok, from back to front, the "poorer alternatives" IMHO
In a tournament list I would not take Greater Daemons because in the current lists the cost 8 to summon and there is something like a 40% chance of failure. Two make it almost certain that one or other won't appear when needed. Added to which the formations with the Champ and Bearer automatically become targets and may well be broken before they can do the necessary. If using the revised 7 points for summoning, I might be tempted, but knowing my luck the GDs would still stay at home. I think I would keep one and use the other 100 points elsewhere, but keep two Champs and Bearers to allow some flexibility over where he arrives.

The "Breathough lesser Daemon Wave" looks funky - until you realise just how weak the Forlorn Hope formations are. Without Bearers to keep the Daemons, I think they will quickly evaporate leaving you with 4x ground an an air-formation which will probably struggle as it is out-activated. Added to which, I tend to dislike titans as I never get good value from them. In the BL, the only titans to use are Ferals and Wheels - and they are regulars in the UK tournaments. A single Banelord with limited protection would probably not last long

Likewise the Ravager will probably not do well either. Neither chalk nor cheese it is weak enough to be farily easy to destroy, while not providing sufficient punch to make it worthwhile. As we have discusse, you can get a really punchy set of CSM-Termies for the same cost which are (IMHO) more potent and survivable

-0- -0- -0- -0-
Which brings us to the 'better' lists:-

"Ghengis Khorne" is good (and the name is corny too ) though the CSM-Termies are weak and need to be 6x strong. Drop a few LDs to beef them up, or possibly even make them mobile with Land-Raiders (making them the BTS) whilst reducing the other big armoured company slightly so giving you three armoured and three bike formations. Also, I tend to prefer ground formations so look at swapping a flier for another ground formation - perhaps a mobile Forlorn Hope??

I really like the "armoured breakthrough" 10x activations with Daemons and mobility. My only complaint being that you have not got the DP in the retinue to keep it alive, and the armoured companies in general seem to lack resilience (compared with Leman Russ for example), so look to find ways of beefing them up.

"Balanced MKII" is also a good list, though I would probably swap out one of the fliers and some LDs for another ground formation. This obviously is intended to make best use of terrain and opponents weaknesses with all-round capabilities. However, that can also be its weakness and the armoured assault company is as resilient as a BTS should be (even though it looks funky on paper).

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Just to see how it works I'd suggest using the Genghis Khorne list.

Nice name BTW

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

@ pixelgeek:

I have my moments  

@ Ginger:

With LI´s "New playtest" it´s 7 points to summon, I´m using that one ... it also went down to 75 points at one time , but this is not in the .doc, will recalculate and edit (so no one checked the numbers, huh ?)
 

"Breakthrough Greater Daemon Wave" has 3 formations with Champions, I´m confident I´ll be able to summon both GDs. The C-Termies are deliberately weak, it´s a hit-or miss thing, with Icon, Pact and Champ they however cannot be ignored.

"Breakthrough Lesser Daemon Wave": In my experience the FHs get activated early in an attempt to stall and force the enemy to waste firepower, there´ll be a daemonic shield up when they get shot at. Let´s say I´m confident they won´t all die early, and if they soak up sufficient firepower for the Retinues with 2 turns of summoned daemon´s to make contact more or less intact ... it´s "mission accomplished"!

I used to take Banelords everytime ~2 years ago, the 12BP-artillery strike is something to behold, but opponents became quite good at neutralizing it. I miss fielding a Warlord-class Titan though, and this list might benefit from a towering monstrosity blasting a huge swathe into the foe and then charging forwards with the horde!

The Ravager - I know. I hate it, but oneé got to try and find a way to make it work, right?

Formations in the "armoured breakthrough" are very much compromises to get the activation count up, get some AA, some 4+RA, some exploitation units, something to hold the line.

General comment: You don´t seem to like air formations very much, do you? With BL, I find them useful for both activations and flexibility, the list has no other options to strike anywhere and weak AA. IMO a formation of HellBlades is the absolute minimum, I can´t stand being bombed with impunity, or going without BP weapons for that matter.
So it´s often 1x HellLBades, 1xHellTalons for me...

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Oddly enough I've had success with the ravager, but I think I might be the only one!

I find the speed is useful to get it into action supporting assaults seeing as I build my Black Legion forces around mechanised retinues and armour more than anything else. It draws fire and so shields the rest of the force or hits the enemy with support fire in turn 2 if ignored.

But anyway, I vote for Genghis Khorne to see how it works out

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They are free, yes, but not entirely free; for they have a master, and that master is Law.

I found a copy&paste error in the C-Termie formation, it was missing 50 points for the Champ in some lists, have edited accordingly either cutting LDs or the Champ.

I don´t think the Ravager is useless, however it is seriously outgunned by the Reaver, and I´m not sure -25 points, the Tail and +2EA (small arms) are a good tradeoff for 3 nerfed main weapons.

Edit: Redid the numbers, used Excel this time and it plain beats paper&pencil. The Armoured list went down to 6 activations, which is not competetive. Not sure whether I can get to fixing it today (hey, it´s Friday evening!) but will see to it tomorrow.

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Well, my reasoning on the air formations is as follows:-
3x Hell blades have more firepower than 2x TBolts, so are definitely a formation to keep in. They can kill off broken formations and provide a good CAP boost to the AA.

However, I don't like the Hell Talons because their stats are a series of compromises that do not do anything well (although the stats are appropriate for the cost). With only two aircraft they have poor CAP, poor long range assault capabilities and low survivability against enemy AA. They have to get in close to drop bombs to generate most damage but cannot risk enemy AA (and most tournament lists usually have a reasonable amount of AA to deter air strikes etc) so end up being sidelined.

If pressed, I would probably take two formations of Hell blades though as aircraft cannot contest objectives, in an army that already has restricted formation numbers at 3000 points IMO you are better off with only one air formation, and this is the final nail in the Hell Talon coffin.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

HellTalons are okay if you can avoid AA. HellBlades OTOH are close to useless vs AVs, it´s just not worth attacking pure AV-formations if you can help it.

I love the minis of both chaos flyers though, maybe that´s why I am partial to taking air.

Fixed the Armoured Breakthrough btw, more LDs, less bikes, add FH.

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Kickoff is in 16 hours.

I made 6 lists on purpose, that way I can roll a D6 to pick an army for me!


Though the "Genghis Khorne" one seems to be a crowd favourite ... we´ll see ...

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I'm only interested in seeing how it works as it looks like a bit of an extreme list and I'd like to see how it plays out

_________________
Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

We´ll know soon, the door bell is going to ring any minute and the "Genghis Khorne" army has already gathered for battle on an old edition of "Warhammer Siege"

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Somehow I overlooked this thread.

It would have done me no good though...

He used the Ghengis Khorne list: What devasteted me in the first activation was a dumb mistake that left room for the demon prince and retinue to teleport next to my Siegfried detachment. Because of their Scout ability he declared an intermingled assault on them, my Regimental HQ, the Bombard battery and the 2nd Siege AA Battery. When the smoke cleared the demon prince was standing on top of my Blitzkrieg objective and my center rear was gone...

They never moved out of the forest around the Blitzkrieg objective and busied themselves killing the rest of the Regimental HQ, a Siege Arty Battery and breaking another Infantry Company.

It was the first time I played my Siegers and this will not happen again. So no real pro and cons about the Ghengis Khorne list as I fought a delaying action after the other from the beginning.

Next time... :-)

Two thoughts here.

1) The CSM-termies are not allowed to teleport into enemy ZoC, and the Siegfrieds must have covered quite an area. Indeed, Siegies are usually quite hard to catch out like this because of the unit density. So, how did they manage to achieve it here?

2) If I have understood you correctly, it sounds as though the other formations were within 10cms of the Siegfrieds. Were they outside 5cms? If so, I thought that the 'scout' intermingled FAQ had been overturned so they only count as intermingled if within 5cms like any other unit. Consequently you might have had one or perhaps two other formations to play with.

That said, IMO this is the 'classic' use of CSM-termies together with daemons. Getting the initiative (pretty much guaranteed) make this formation a monster, and once it is in place, can take most of the army to shift.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

1.) I first tried to put the Termies behind the Siegfrieds, but there was not enough space there so they went in front of them. I´m 100% sure that their placement there was legal.

2.) I would be unaware of such a change. Leafing through the 2008 FAQ, the only stuff remotely touching the matter is this bit:

2.1.12 Scout
Q: It’s possible to place a Scout unit
just behind another friendly unit, so
that the Scouts 10cm ZOC covers the
friendly unit too. If this happens, can I
charge the non-Scout unit? The rules
say I can’t enter a ZOC unless I’m
charging the unit it belongs to.
A: You are, of course, allowed to charge
the unit! If an explanation is needed, then
let’s say that the rule for moving into base
contact with the enemy takes precedence
over the rule for not entering another
unit’s ZOC. However, any player who has
attempted to use this tactic to stop a
charge should hang their head in shame!

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1. The Termies did not teleport into ZOC.
2. All other intermingled units were more than 5 but less than 10 cm from a Siegfried model.