Tactical Command
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Comments before final L&D list is turned in
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=11912		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  wraeththu [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
Hey All,

I am looking to turn the L&D list into Jervis within the next two weeks if not a little sooner. I think the list is in good shape and it is ready. So if you feel there are big problems, then it is best to bring them up now. So speak up now or forever hold your peace.

-Audrey
Author:  Warmaster Nice [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
I think the list looks great. You and the playtesters have done a splendid job.
Now to dig out those BTR APC's I'm going to proxy as Land Transporters... :;):

Cheers! :)
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
Okay, I've been playing a lot of L&D these past few weeks, just haven't had much time to do any write-ups or reports. ?

I've taken them against Eldar (Biel-Tan, Saim Hann and Ulthwe), Marines (Codex, Blood Angels and White Scars), Guard (Steel Legion and Siegemasters) and Chaos Marines. ?The only armies I haven't really fought against are tha Orks and that's because I'm the big Ork player in my local group. ?I hope to get someone to field Orks against me some time soon to try horde vs horde.

I've had really good success with the army, though I've yet to beat Guard with them, and think it seems pretty well balanced. ?The new summoning rules are a great improvement adding a bit more predictability for the points to daemon usage as well as preventing them from being randomly overwhelming. ?My primary focus has been on Slaanesh and Tzeentch forces, though I used pure Khorne to good effect this weekend. ?Daemon Engines are very tough, expensive, but powerful; I'm curious, does anyone use Traitor Support units instead of Daemon Engines?

Overall the list seems pretty well balanced and I've had no real complaints from any of my opponents about cheesiness or overly cheap units. ?That being said, a couple of comments/suggestions.

1. ?First off, there was something about the list that's been bothering me since I first read it, but I couldn't put my finger on it. ?One of our infrequent players is an English teacher and he nailed it after reading over the unit stats: ?Since "Arch-Heretic" means "chief" or "ultimate" heretic, why is it used for generic unit leaders and "Demagogue" used for supreme commander when, by definition, it should be the other way around? ?

2. ?Could the Arch-Heretic's "Arcane Powers" be changed to a +1MWFF attack instead of the current shooting attack? ?Most psychic powers seem to be represented by Small Arms effects instead of/or in addition to shooting attacks. ?I don't think I've ever actually used the MW6+ shot in all the games I've played.

3. ?Would it be possible to change the various Traitor Upgrades to be "up to" their max number instead of fixed numbers? ?The Chaotic upgrades already are set up this way and the Hydras come this way as well. ?I just like the thought of a more rag-tag look with an occasional tank or support unit added to the mix; the point values shouldn't be to hard to work out.

4. ?Critical Hit Effect:The greater daemon is hurled back into the warp. It will drag any other units within 5cms back with on a roll of 6.

The wording/effect of this really needs to be cleared up. ?Is this a "hit" on a 6+ or a full on destruction? ?Are affected units allowed saves? ?This happened when a Bloodthirster was critted by a Firststrike unit while engaged with a warengine. ?The warengine rolled a "6" for the effect, and we counted it as a single hit, but it was by no means clear.

That's all off the top of my head. ?I want to thank you and tell you I really appreciate the work you've put into the list Audrey! ?It *really* makes me glad I saved all those cultist and beastman figures from my Epic40k days! ?Glad I could be part of the process!
Author:  Blarg D Impaler [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
Please forgive me because I have not really been tracking the development of this army list, my primary focus, until recently, was on the AMTL.  If these questions have already been hashed out or out of place it is only because I speak out of ingnorance.

1) Where are the Chaos titans?  You know, the Imperial titans that have been converted over to Chaos and have a tail, funky head, and maybe some Chaos specific weapons like the tendril whip?

2) While you were doing the power-specific stuff I noticed some Khorne specific stuff is missing.  Where are the Cannons of Khorne?  Where is the Khorne Banelord titan?  Are there Juggers anymore, I didn't remember seeing them.

3) I noticed that there were some 4 unit formations listed while the miniatures were only sold in packs of 3 originally.  How is anyone going to field 4 of them, especially since we can't get those units anymore, and if we could GW/SG won't do bit orders?
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
Quote (Blarg D Impaler @ Oct. 06 2005,20:46)
1) Where are the Chaos titans? ?You know, the Imperial titans that have been converted over to Chaos and have a tail, funky head, and maybe some Chaos specific weapons like the tendril whip?

2) While you were doing the power-specific stuff I noticed some Khorne specific stuff is missing. ?Where are the Cannons of Khorne? ?Where is the Khorne Banelord titan? ?Are there Juggers anymore, I didn't remember seeing them.

3) I noticed that there were some 4 unit formations listed while the miniatures were only sold in packs of 3 originally. ?How is anyone going to field 4 of them, especially since we can't get those units anymore, and if we could GW/SG won't do bit orders?

Hello Blarg!

1.  This armylist represents a cultist uprising on an Imperial planet, not a raiding force from the Eye of Terror where the Traitor Titans tend to come from.  The best the cultists have for titans are the Slaanesh Scout Titans.  The Chaos Space Marine (Black Legion) list has the Traitor Titans in it.

2.  The Cannons of Khorne have been subsumed under the undivided "Hellfire Cannons", I think most people use Juggers as either Big Mutants or Traitor Rough Riders.  As to the titans, see above.

3.  The main reason for having units of four is a rules related one: it keeps the unit from breaking from only one causualty!  As to acquiring the units, well, once the lists are officially published GW may, eventually, start producing the units again.  Until then, scavenging on eBay and constant vigilance and trading are about the only way to get the models.  As well, you can always use the "counts as" rules to help you play.

Hope that helps!
Author:  wraeththu [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
[quote="Blarg D Impaler,Oct. 06 2005,15:46"][/quote]
1) Where are the Chaos titans?


Chaos Titans are in the Chaos Marine list not the cultist list. ?So they are around but you will have to look at the Chaso Marine list.

2) While you were doing the power-specific stuff I noticed some Khorne specific stuff is missing. ?Where are the Cannons of Khorne?

Cannons of Khorne are now Hellfire Cannons. ?They are considered undivided daemon engines now. ?But you can play them as khorne if you like in friendly games.

Where is the Khorne Banelord titan?

See the Chaos Marine list.

Are there Juggers anymore, I didn't remember seeing them.

They are not in either chaos list. ?Some player are using them as Chaos Marine Bikes. ?Like I use the Slaanesh Riders as CSM Bikers.

3) I noticed that there were some 4 unit formations listed while the miniatures were only sold in packs of 3 originally. ?How is anyone going to field 4 of them, especially since we can't get those units anymore, and if we could GW/SG won't do bit orders?

Some of the old packs were sold as 3 to a blister and some were sold as 2 to a blister but that is not the point. ?The original plan from Jervis is to rerelease the old chaos models when the chaos lists are made available sometime next year. ?But as we all know that is subject to change.

I hope this helps answer your questions.

-Audrey
Author:  wraeththu [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
[quote="Chroma,Oct. 06 2005,12:39"][/quote]
I've had really good success with the army, though I've yet to beat Guard with them, and think it seems pretty well balanced.


Interesting, I have won more times than not against the guard.


I'm curious, does anyone use Traitor Support units instead of Daemon Engines?


I do. ?I usually have some traitor support in every army I make.


1. ?First off, there was something about the list that's been bothering me since I first read it, but I couldn't put my finger on it. ?One of our infrequent players is an English teacher and he nailed it after reading over the unit stats: ?Since "Arch-Heretic" means "chief" or "ultimate" heretic, why is it used for generic unit leaders and "Demagogue" used for supreme commander when, by definition, it should be the other way around?


I haven't really looked into the exact definitions on that one. ?I went with what Jervis originally had. ?But I will take a look.


2. ?Could the Arch-Heretic's "Arcane Powers" be changed to a +1MWFF attack instead of the current shooting attack? ?Most psychic powers seem to be represented by Small Arms effects instead of/or in addition to shooting attacks. ?I don't think I've ever actually used the MW6+ shot in all the games I've played.


I have used it a few times. ?But for now I plan to keep the Arcane Powers as they are since the Cultist Magus has a MW attack in hand to hand.


3. ?Would it be possible to change the various Traitor Upgrades to be "up to" their max number instead of fixed numbers? ?The Chaotic upgrades already are set up this way and the Hydras come this way as well. ?I just like the thought of a more rag-tag look with an occasional tank or support unit added to the mix; the point values shouldn't be to hard to work out.


The set numbers where kept to prevent min maxing since these units are already being used in the Guard list. ?Also the idea is to give a feeling of some left over structure that has been ingrained into the military troops. ?As I have said before about friendly games, change it to your needs. ?You are more than welcome to break down the cost per unit and buy them individually as long as your opponeent is fine with that.


4. ?Critical Hit Effect:The greater daemon is hurled back into the warp. It will drag any other units within 5cms back with on a roll of 6.

The wording/effect of this really needs to be cleared up. ?Is this a "hit" on a 6+ or a full on destruction? ?Are affected units allowed saves? ?This happened when a Bloodthirster was critted by a Firststrike unit while engaged with a warengine. ?The warengine rolled a "6" for the effect, and we counted it as a single hit, but it was by no means clear.


That could stand to be a bit clearer. ?Each WE has a chance for a critical hit when damaged. ?The Critical occurs on a 6+ (as I am sure you know). ?If a 6 is rolled then the GD is dragged back into the warp and removed from play. ?Any other units within 5cms roll a D6 and on a 6 They are destroyed as well regardless of how many DC they have or what type the unit is. ?No saves period. ?The dangers of playing around with creatures from the warp.


That's all off the top of my head. ?I want to thank you and tell you I really appreciate the work you've put into the list Audrey! ?It *really* makes me glad I saved all those cultist and beastman figures from my Epic40k days! ?Glad I could be part of the process!


Thanks for the kind words and your input.

-Audrey
Author:  colonel_sponsz [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
Quote (Blarg D Impaler @ Oct. 06 2005,20:46)
3) I noticed that there were some 4 unit formations listed while the miniatures were only sold in packs of 3 originally.  How is anyone going to field 4 of them, especially since we can't get those units anymore, and if we could GW/SG won't do bit orders?

I times the points value by 3/4 and field a unit of three  :D

Orde
Author:  Markconz [ Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
Congratulations to Audrey and all the playtesters on reaching this stage! I look forward to seeing seeing the final version posted in the vault. :)
Author:  vanvlak [ Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
Ditto Markconz - I've just added to my L&D stock-of-troops-in-waiting too :D
Author:  wraeththu [ Fri Oct 07, 2005 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
I have been asked if the v3.1 is the final version by a few people. ?Yes and no. ?I am going to gather all the last minute feedback and then do final changes to the list. ?Most of these "should" be minor changes. ?But I will post a link to the final version that is submitted to Jervis. ?Of course that doesn't mean it is the final final list :). ?The Rules Review Committee still has to look it over. ?So there still could be some last minute changes. ?But I do think the list should not change drastically. ?But I will keep everyone up to date. ?After it is given the final approval I am not exactly sure what the final version will look like. ?The CSM and L&D lists will be the first new online published materials for SG. ?So this is all new territory for SG.

-Audrey
Author:  yme-loc [ Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
I'd recomend the following changes

Chaos Altars - 175 pts
Land Transports - 15 pts

Remove Plague Zombies from list, or remove teleport and re-do stats.

Slaanesh Questor - 275 pts
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
I agree that the Transports are still an awfully good deal.
Author:  MaksimSmelchak [ Mon Oct 10, 2005 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
Hi Audrey,

I just wanted send you kudos! :D

I really appreciate your work and hope that your house business is now all wrapped up in a successful manner.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Author:  Irondeath [ Tue Oct 11, 2005 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Comments before final L&D list is turned in
Quote (yme-loc @ Oct. 10 2005,15:02)

Could you elaborate please?

What makes you think that the Altars are underpiced, the Tranports anything but deathtraps or the Zombies unworkable in their present incarnation?
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