Tactical Command
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Daemons and unit breaking
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=11899		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
When a unit breaks from shooting attacks, any accompanying daemons are removed from play.  

Now, if a unit loses an engage, do the daemons vanish first, or can the Chaos player elect to take "hack down" hits on daemons first, saving non-daemonic units from damage?
Author:  wraeththu [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Quote (Chroma @ 19 Jan. 2006 (15:47))

When a unit breaks from shooting attacks, any accompanying daemons are removed from play. ?

Now, if a unit loses an engage, do the daemons vanish first, or can the Chaos player elect to take "hack down" hits on daemons first, saving non-daemonic units from damage?


I don't see where I put, ?"When a unit breaks from shooting attacks, any accompanying daemons are removed from play."

It says break period. ?So when in an assault I have played that the formation breaks first which removes all summoned units, then you do the "hack down" casualties.

"If the losing formation is not broken then it becomes broken and may withdraw (see 1.13.3). In addition, the losing formation suffers a number of extra hits equal to the difference between the two sides? result scores."

-Audrey
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Quote (wraeththu @ 19 Jan. 2006 (21:01))
I don't see where I put, ?"When a unit breaks from shooting attacks, any accompanying daemons are removed from play."

It says break period. ?So when in an assault I have played that the formation breaks first which removes all summoned units, then you do the "hack down" casualties.

"If the losing formation is not broken then it becomes broken and may withdraw (see 1.13.3). In addition, the losing formation suffers a number of extra hits equal to the difference between the two sides? result scores."

Oh, I never said you put that anywhere wraeththu, I was just clarifying on shooting.

I'm just trying to determine in what order breaking and withdrawing and hack-down hits occur in a lost engage.  They appear to be, in the rules, simultaneous effects, eg, you break and suffer the hack-downs, and then withdrawl.

I've been playing it that the daemons go away as soon as the unit loses the engage, but played against a Black Legion opponent on the weekend that wanted to take the hack-down hits on daemons first and then remove whatever daemons were still left and withdraw.

I couldn't find a definitive order that satisfied him and that's the way he'd been playing it with his group.  It certainly made it harder to wipe out his formations.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
So when in an assault I have played that the formation breaks first which removes all summoned units, then you do the "hack down" casualties.


Hmmm... I always did the opposite - take the hackdown hits first.  I always pictured the "vanish into the warp" as being similar to the rest of the force doing its withdrawal move.  The hack-down hits are still allocated closest first, so it's not always allocated to the daemons but they do tend to take the bulk of hits.

If I had to guess, I'd say most people were doing that.  In particular, there have been a lot of discussions regarding Thousand Sons and Flamers where people said they would lead with the TSons for the better armor and keep the Flamers back to protect them from potential countercharge which resulted in larger numbers of lost units.  Obviously, the number of units would be the same no matter how they were arranged if the daemons left first.

Definitely rates at least an FAQ.
Author:  wraeththu [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Quote (nealhunt @ 19 Jan. 2006 (16:55))
Hmmm... I always did the opposite - take the hackdown hits first. ?I always pictured the "vanish into the warp" as being similar to the rest of the force doing its withdrawal move. ?The hack-down hits are still allocated closest first, so it's not always allocated to the daemons but they do tend to take the bulk of hits.

Put that way it does makes a point for your case as well. ?Obviously there was no delineation as to what the correct order is. ?The original rules make the "hack downs" and breaking of the formations seem simultaneous. ?The point about taking the closest casualties first makes me think you should take the "hack downs" from all the units on the formation (including daemons) before the unit breaks, flees and the daemons are removed.

-Audrey
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Has this issue been resolved?
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
I think it was decided that hackdowns first, then daemons vanish, but that may just be my confirmation bias.
:D
Author:  wraeththu [ Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
You take hackdown casualties first (which can included daemons).

-Audrey
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Apr 05, 2006 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Any answers on the Great Daemon critical, Audrey?
Author:  Irondeath [ Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Really nice. We have been playing this with daemons vanishing first and applying hack-downs then, as anything else felt like cheating. Ironically, GDs are Fearless and therefore not eligible for taking hack-down hits... giving LDs Fearless as well would resolve the matter neatly IMO.
Author:  wraeththu [ Fri Apr 21, 2006 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Quote (Irondeath @ 20 April 2006 (15:52))
Really nice. We have been playing this with daemons vanishing first and applying hack-downs then, as anything else felt like cheating.

Well surprising enough the "cheating way" is the correct way. ?:D

I do not see Fearless being added to the LD.

-Audrey
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Apr 21, 2006 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
The folks I seen using chaos (our group has abandoned them) were doing this the way Audrey was doing it.

LOL, like irondeath, I thought the other way was cheating!

Ironically, BL has been doing great in the games I've seen - even with taking additional casualties after the deamons vanish. This change will make things err... better for the BL.

Hmm, from my experience, this seems like a really bad interpretation / decision by the powers that be.

I hope more playtest is given on this front before the chaos hit the presses.

Cheers,
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 4:55 am ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Oh, and all those 3bp ignore cover MW's you can get :)
Author:  Chroma [ Sat Apr 22, 2006 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 22 April 2006 (04:55))
Oh, and all those 3bp ignore cover MW's you can get :)

Well, that's more of an issue with Black Legion than LatD.

I still think Daemons should disappear/be immune to hack-downs (and that's all giving them fearless would do, as they'd still disappear when their parent formation breaks) as I see it as more plausible that the Daemons would leave their mortal followers to be slaughtered than stick around.

In fact, it seems to be a variation on the "Daemon Shield" effect against shooting, that we really worked to diminish, raising its ugly head again.
Author:  Irondeath [ Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Daemons and unit breaking
Indeed, and that?s why I proposed Fearless. Solves the matter without further ado for no side effect, as this ability otherwise only relates to being broken, which the LD?s cannot be as they have disappeared by then.
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