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CSM list review
Irondeath
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:40 pm 
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Death Wheels are quite useful for placing BM at long distances, an ability that I value greatly as there are few other options in the list, but their shooting is quite useless otherwise... however, if the Reapers are in range, assault!




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Magarch
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:44 pm 
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Well, these are the points I'm not really pleased with the current list ;

- The AA on the Obliterators ; it's a real pain in the ass when you play aircraft against them. Since they're infantry, they're very hard to disable when you compare with the AA in the others armies. Moreover, they have an insane firepower even when alone. This makes the Obliterators too cheap and too appealing for all they can do.

There was a recent alternative to allow an AA upgrade on Rhinos, which I think is a very good idea to resolve that matter.

- The Faction rule. I find it unnecessary, since most of the players actually optimize to keep that 1+ initiative all the time, no matter what happens. It's not really that hard when you think that "marking" your formations is essentially a matter of daemon summoning/cultists marines/pure fluff. Leaving it wouldn't in fact have a huge effect on the whole list. The advantage would be to have less special rules, which I think is a good thing (but then, it's my point of view).

- The daemon summoning rule. It's my major concern. I think daemons in Epic battles should better be gathered in formations of their own rather than be some units keeping appearing and disappearing there and there. Not only the current system is unnecessary complicated (and, let's face it, quite random), but it actually tends to make daemons just awesome meat shields for the huge infantry formations (one of the players at my club is a great fan of this tactic). This is a view of the daemons I just don't agree with.

I would like to suggest using formations of daemons (like, 8 units of lesser daemons with some upgrades - greater daemon, more lesser daemons) that would enter in game with a variant of the teleport rule (like they can only teleport in a 15 cm radius of an icon bearer). Broken formations of daemons would simply disappear in the warp and be destroyed - that would represent instability.

The trouble with daemons is that they are too often used as protection when they should be used more agressively. It's more in their nature, I think. That's why I would like to see them out of the other formations.
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Kleomenes
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:52 pm 
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I don't personally like the idea of demon formations. I like the meat shield/attached to formation usage.

They CAN be used quite aggressively in certain situations, the problem in the black legion list is as someone said a while back about them, you are almost always just better off buying more CSM boots on the ground.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:55 pm 
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The Rhno AA upgrade isn't canon and so won't likely be added. The Obliterators are quite deadly but I've not really had them be overpowering in games. Anyone else have any feedback from their games?

Teleporting formations of Daemons might be an idea and perhaps just have the GDs are units that deploy on the table?

It sure would be simpler

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:57 pm 
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(Kleomenes @ Mar. 03 2008,13:52)
QUOTE
I don't personally like the idea of demon formations. I like the meat shield/attached to formation usage.

Sadly that is pretty much the main problem with almost any of the previous summoning rules.

And it has to be unbalanced because even I was able to get grossly one-sided results playing with them that way  :D

You know its really unbalanced when I get good results with it  :D

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:58 pm 
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Regarding the Faction rule... I think it should be tossed. Its pointless in its current form and its bizarre to think that any Black Legion commander wouldn't make sure his troops worked well with one another

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:59 pm 
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(pixelgeek @ Mar. 03 2008,21:35)
QUOTE
I've not heard any comments about the Ravagers before. But that might just indicate that people aren't using them

Anyone use them in a game?

Yes, three times now. Thats where my general comments earlier came from.

Wargame_insomniac and I did try a battle report with the ravager in a while back but we ran out of time (and it was pretty one sided due to a lucky chosen assault - supported by none other than the ravager!).

Usual tactics are doubling first turn, doubling or advancing second turn into support position, rinse and repeat third turn. Overall its been good for supporting assaults, but its firing has been sub-par (but not useless). Not sure its worth 650 though as it is.

The main reason I use it is I face IG armies with 3-4 shadowswords very often, and its the only thing that has a chance of surviving (ferals and decimators just get torn apart). I have a banelord panted now but it would be too slow to comfortably fill this role I think

It is the ravagers TK gun thats most dissappointing. It feels like you have 2.5 guns compared to a loyalist titan, all with shorter range, and only have slightly better firefight to compensate.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:02 pm 
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Anyone else have any feedback from their games?


When Obliterators are on the table, my Thunderbolt squadrons don't bother showing up, as they're essentially doomed if they do so... I won't be able to remove the enemy's AA ability like with other armies because the Oblits are exceptionally tough and can also hide inside infantry formations.

Compare that with a Hydra for example, which has only two shots instead of three, is an AV so is perhaps somewhat easier to pick out, and has 5+ armour instead of 4+RA with an invulnerable save as well. Oh and it can't teleport.

Is that difference in abilities worth only 25pts?

With the change to AA shooting (-1 to-hit if the AA unit's formation takes an order that allows movement), Obliterators become less threatening.


The only other comparable unit in the game is the Feral Ork Wyrdboy?




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:10 pm 
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How are people seeing Obliterators used? How many, in what factions etc? Are people maxxing out on them and putting three in a formation?

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:11 pm 
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(Kleomenes @ Mar. 03 2008,13:59)
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The main reason I use it is I face IG armies with 3-4 shadowswords very often

This is how I see Guard forces being played as well. Between them and Deathstrikes I often don't even bother with Titans or that many WEs.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:23 pm 
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Obliterators:

It?s a mix between "too useful too miss" (due to fearless and AA), pricey (+75 for one, +150 for 2, worthwhile, but not cheap) and list issues (+65 for another Chosen/ChaosTerminator vs. +75 for a fearless FF2+ Oblit is an easy choice).

In the BL retinues, they are worth their 75 points, with the Terminators, they are better than additional Chosen, which might go down slightly to 60 Pts to compensate.

In the AA role in BL Retinues, ?I rarely field more than 1 per formation, it?s just to expensive and BL suffers from lack of activations consistently, aggravated so if you go for expensive retinues.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:28 pm 
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Re: IG:

Between the Commissars, Deathstrikes, Shadowswords, and Vultures, target WE are dead. If the Steel Legion list was new/fan. there?d be cries of "broken" all over. IG is quite good, very competetive and slightly better than Orks IMO of the original lists.




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:33 pm 
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(Irondeath @ Mar. 03 2008,14:23)
QUOTE
In the AA role in BL Retinues,  I rarely field more than 1 per formation, it?s just to expensive and BL suffers from lack of activations consistently, aggravated so if you go for expensive retinues.

This is my thinking on them as well as when I do add them I do so in singles to add some firepower but anything other than one seems to be a huge point sink

Maybe I should just spend the points and see what happens?

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Mephiston
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:36 pm 
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My 3000 ponit list would contain between 3 and 4 Obliterators. Two in my BTS retinue, one in 1 or 2 other retinues and 1 with the chosen, however they usually end up broken by themselves.
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Kleomenes
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:52 pm 
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Ive not used them yet, as I havent got any modelled.

But none of my regular opponents are keen on airpower so its not had a huge impact yet

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