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Black Legion and free stuff etc.
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=11041		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  rpr [ Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.
When the Black Legion is going to get updates? :]
The following things seem to be wrong:
* free Lords for the formations - a character upgrade worth 50 point or so for free for Raptors and Chosen - why?
* Obliterators seem quit cheap for their power ...

I can go with the free SC, as Black Legion needs a strong commander - and when it is not optional, it could be free in my opinion.

Up to 5 Daemon Princes is a bit evil (especially when they are like they currently are) ..
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.

(rpr @ Nov. 19 2007,19:59)
QUOTE
* free Lords for the formations - a character upgrade worth 50 point or so for free for Raptors and Chosen - why?

Technically, the cost for the character is spread into the point value for the individual units, so the more you put in the formation, the "cheaper" the character is, but they're not really "free".

Up to 5 Daemon Princes is a bit evil (especially when they are like they currently are) ..
To do this you'd need five different Factions in your army, so you're going to have a lot of "hatred" going on, screwing up your activations... I almost never take more than two different Factions in an army at any time.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.
As ever I'm against free SC's... it just shows a tournament-style gaming bias (IE: The army list is slightly tweaked towards a good tournament style army before list construction even begins... weighing up whether or not you want a SC in your army should be part of the skill of list building).

To do this you'd need five different Factions in your army, so you're going to have a lot of "hatred" going on, screwing up your activations... I almost never take more than two different Factions in an army at any time.

The 'hatred' rule in 40k was completely removed a few months ago.

What with the rather clunky mechanic in place for the Black Legion, shouldn't it be removed here too?


Making BL players pay for their SC's should adequately compensate for the increased reliability. :D
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 19 2007,20:43)
QUOTE
The 'hatred' rule in 40k was completely removed a few months ago.

What with the rather clunky mechanic in place for the Black Legion, shouldn't it be removed here too?

Making BL players pay for their SC's should adequately compensate for the increased reliability. :D

Something to keep on file for the Black Legion army review... some time next year!   :D
Author:  Markconz [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.

(Chroma @ Nov. 19 2007,20:53)
QUOTE
Something to keep on file for the Black Legion army review... some time next year!   :D

Yes I think that sort of time is the consensus...  :)
Author:  rpr [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.

(Chroma @ Nov. 19 2007,22:32)
QUOTE

(rpr @ Nov. 19 2007,19:59)
QUOTE
* free Lords for the formations - a character upgrade worth 50 point or so for free for Raptors and Chosen - why?

Technically, the cost for the character is spread into the point value for the individual units, so the more you put in the formation, the "cheaper" the character is, but they're not really "free".

Technically, it is more like: the more units you take, the more expensive the character is.

Isn't usually that the more you get the cheaper the formation should go (for average unit cost), as "activation" itself should have some cost?

And what I have seen Black Legion lists, 4 is the most common formation size - why would not it be? You get (effective) lowest price-per-unit and most activations.

So yes they are free. Better would be X for 4 raptors, Y for each extra, and same for Chosen. Or ditch the lord, make it optional upgrade.
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.
I always take the maximum (8) in Raptor, bike and armour formations as smaller formations often end up breaking before the end phase when the daemons disappear, also these larger formations can still be useful after losing units.

The only formation I take 4 in is with the Chosen as I tend to use them to pick off artillery and
don't want to risk to many points on the initiative roll
Author:  Nicodemus [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.
I take maxium number of Raptors because they are so stunningly good assault formation, I have never tested Bikers so not sure about them. But with chosens you get best power for points with minium size.

Raptors at least need some "tuning" and dropping free character from them would be great place to start.

Obliterators would IMO need either 100 (125?) pricetag or dropping AA from them (or downgrading it _big time_ (1 AA6+?)). Now they are nobrain unit.


Why Chaos does not have any AA-tank?


And because Chaos has problems but not will to correct it I would drop it from "official" and put it back to experimental/fan list status what it deserves. (But for some reason Orks are getting nerfing and chaos is not. Problem is that other of those armies is broken and other is balanced. What? You say I am bitter? :p =))
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.
Why Chaos does not have any AA-tank?

More to the point is 'why is the Black Legion army list a War Engine-focused list with a decent ammount of bloat, instead of a more focused Chaos Space Marine list?'
Author:  Steve54 [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.

(Nicodemus @ Nov. 20 2007,11:09)
QUOTE
And because Chaos has problems but not will to correct it I would drop it from "official" and put it back to experimental/fan list status what it deserves.

I don't understand what these massive issues are - I have played the list constantly for about 18 months - 70+ games and taken it to four tournaments and I can't see that anything more than tweaking is necessary

About the only unit that is not viable in a competitive list is the LR/predator formation

Raptors may be a good unit but I know a lot of people favour bikes

Surely fluff wise, especially the new codex, CSM are meant to have a strong leader - SC

On removing hated factions - why? its a nice little factor to have to bear in mind with the list

As for it being WE dominated I've successfully used no-WE lists of retinues,bikes,raptors,chosen. etc

Obliterators are good but they are pretty much the only flak coverage and their range+the formations they can be added to make it very difficult to keep flak coverage. Furthermore if we are looking at the force as a whole you pay for Oblits in that you then can't have transport for that unit.

In my opinion the list is not overpowered - tournament results bear this out, and has as many viable ways to play it as any other list
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.
Surely fluff wise, especially the new codex, CSM are meant to have a strong leader - SC

Yep, and Space Marines are also meant to have a strong leader and they have to pay 100 points(!) to get one.

I'm fine with the CSM SC being mandatory... as long as he is paid for (50pts would seem a logical price).
Author:  Nicodemus [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.
Decimators
Feral(s)
Raptors
Chosen
Both Space Ships
Obliterators
Lots of free Characters
Deamon Prince
...

Do BL have any weakness other than "bad aircraft"?
Author:  Irondeath [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.
The problem isn?t the BL Warlord being cheap, it?s the ridiculously overpriced SM SC in a list that brinks on the "too costly" on a number of other units as well (dare I say tanks).

Once again, Eldar Avatar, Ork Warlord, IG Commissars... no one seems to mind and readily accepts that these are mysteriously priced into the formation costs, but with BL this continues to be a biggie? Give me a break...

With regards to WE-heavy being the main focus, I have yet to field such an army. It?s not my style, and I get decent results with other builds.

The list is up for review early next year, in March IIRC. The list will have had its year to settle then and other issues might be adressed as well, say Summoning which is too pricey/difficult IMO with regards to Greater Daemons for example.
Author:  Irondeath [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.

(Nicodemus @ Nov. 20 2007,13:15)
QUOTE
Decimators
Feral(s)
Raptors
Chosen
Both Space Ships
Obliterators
Lots of free Characters
Deamon Prince
...

Do BL have any weakness other than "bad aircraft"?

Lack of artillery.
No air transport.
Low-mobilty flak.
Low activation count, especially if you mechanize your infantry.
Blast Markers.
Pricey.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Black Legion and free stuff etc.
Eldar Avatar
Is genuinely costed into the price of the Farseer.

Ork Warlord
Should cost 25pts IMHO.

IG Commissars
At 1 per 500pts they are now costed into the price of the army... unlike the silly 2d6 system which was unbalanced.


Give me a break...
Apparently you want a points break.

Steel Legion
Siegemasters
Tyranids
Tau
Space Marines
White Scars
Eldar
Necrons
AMTL

Those are the official and high-profile experimental army lists where you have to pay for your SC.

Orks
Black Legion
Lost and the Damned

Those are the official lists where you get a free SC.




Getting free SC's takes the strategy out of list building, and makes the game more 'dumbed down' as a consequence.

If Black Legion are keeping their free SC, then I want a free SC for my Imperial Guard and a free SC for my Space Marines. (Note that I don't really want that, as it removes a strategic dimention from the game!)


It is a function of the tournament-centric approach to playtesting during the Chaos lists' development that has resulted in free SC's... not any supposed background justification; Why is it that the leader of a Lost and the Damned cult always has the strategic and tactical skill to keep his army under control, when other armies must pay a premium for this privilige? Why can't he be a normal commander instead, and leave the choice of whether or not to take a SC up to the player?

The answer to the above question is "Because having a SC helps make a good competative army, and having him free makes the army even harder".

You have zero recourse to the background here... there are plenty of Chaos Warbands or LATD uprisings that are (fictionally) led by commanders that are merely competent; Not every Chaos leader is a strategic genius comparable to a Space Marine Chapter Master.
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