Funny about this as I was just discussing this today

I will either stay with the restriction (which I totally missed by the way), or make them 1 per Core formation if I go to a tiered list (probably not necessary).

In saying this however, would you have the same feelings for the following:

Thousand Sons: 2995 points
Rubric + Thrall - 295
Silver Towers x4 - 360
Silver Towers x4 - 360
Silver Towers x4 - 360
Silver Towers x4 - 360
Silver Towers x4 - 360
Silver Towers x5 - 450
Silver Towers x5 - 450

How is it really any different? Just a thought.

V3.3 is more cosmetic than anything else as any changes or additions were the original omissions. So it should be the main list for playtest purposes. So no worries there

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

So is that a 1+ for the Noise Marine retinue then?



So are you stating having Rhinos at 10 points and Land Raiders at 75 points?

My thought is that everyone is getting too carried away with micro this and micro that. It is quickly becoming 40K at another scale. In keeping with Epic as a game at a higher level, my initial thought is you get the 3x Rhinos to transport or the 3x Landraiders and stop all this micro min maxing that goes on. The options are vastly different to justify their own choices rather than allowing the swaps.

Why not take this line of design? What is it that has people needing to mix and match their transports rather than just taking one or the other?

While I like all the new models that are constantly created, it is increasingly becoming a game that is not player friendly as new players are having to ' keep up with the Jones' '. Although we are just talking about basic transports here, I think it is a start in developing a step back and appreciation for the scale that the game sits at, rather than the 40k fanboy aspect that appears to have taken over.

You know me, I will go with what is required. It does not mean I will not try and sway a view...

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

I haven't read the list or the development up til here, just wanted to throw a word in edgewise re: Daemon Engine army.

I know the aim is to make an EC list, but I don't see the downside to having a list that works as both an EC list and a daemon engine list, provided all the choices are balanced with this in mind (ie. The knights aren't overpowered as a spam choice, and the support elements don't make them a bit silly)

In my mind having a bit of variety in list building is a good thing. Especially if you can manage it so that the archetypal build that you are trying to showcase is one of the "obvious" or "good" builds, and some of the other build types are slightly less so (still competitive though), meaning that the tournament builds end up being the archetypal ones.

To demonstrate, don't we all wish the base space marine list was able to make formations of dudes in rhinos armies, or predator armoured division armies as well as the 2x termies, 2x thawk, 2x warhound stuff that does get built?

To flip that SM+orks are the only armies without such restrictions - you can't make a all sentinel+warhound army or war walkers+revenants

I'm not saying it has to be like that at all just giving a point of view.

Is it really an EC army without any noise marines?

You can make the all sentinel+warhound army with the Titan Legion list.
Perhaps you should be able to make the warwalker + Titan list somewhere...

Anyway, the point I'm making is that it's far more convenient to have a list which can represent ALL possible archetypes that are a) Represented in the fluff and b) Able to be balanced both internally and externally within the list.

Who cares if it's an EC army without taking any noise marines. It's YOUR army. You should be able to take what YOU want in it. If you want to use the list to represent a Hell Knight army, you should be able to (subject to the above limits). If you want to be able to field all sonic marines you should be able to do that too (seeing as it is the primary point of the list).

All I'm saying is that I don't think "Because it's not an EC army without noise marines" is a good enough reason to restrict Hell Knights. I think it'd be really useful if more of the homebrew lists were able to represent more then just the main archetype the author is going for.

But that goes against the EA design ethos of many specific lists - eventually there should be a EC, slaanesh renegade and a house devine list not to mention a slaaneshi titan list

It's not a hard decision, I will keep the restriction in for Daemon Knights and Terminators - it was in there for a reason which was very much in line with what Steve was suggesting anyway.

As for the 1+ for the Noise Marine Retinue, that is an easy thing to add. What I would like to do for any freeze or playtest period however is to leave it out.

At present, the Noise Marine retinue or the Noise Marine upgrade is very good. I have no doubt that any EC force would see these in the list along with a consistent presence of Daemons which appears to be a stable icon whenever a Chaos EC force is encountered.

It would be good to see after a few playtests whether they are being taken or not and then make that decision of whether 1+ is necessary or not. I agree, they should be a staple of the list and always present. I am doubtful that they would never be in lists.

There is also the option to allow the Noise Marine Retinue to also have a Daemonic Pact for their current points. So overall, I have room to move to make Noise Marine retinues quite enticing without placing in hard limits/requirements.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Another consideration being reviewed for a change:

Slaanesh Daemon Knights (House Divine)

Currently:
4-6 Slaanesh Daemon Knights: 4 for 300 points, +100 points per extra unit

Option 1 (will go to this if Option 2 is not agreeable)
- 4-6 Slaanesh Daemon Knights: 4 for 300 points, +75 points per extra unit

Option 2 (Cheaper cost offset that you have to buy it as a large formation with no options)
- 6 Slaanesh Daemon Knights: 400 points

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

The latest battle report (3rd) for the Emperor's Children list can be found here:

Emperor's Children vs Apocrypha of Skaros

Enjoy!

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

The playtest above was the last one before moving the development of this list to V3.3.

I have updated the initial link, yet here it is for the sake of ease - Download: Emperor's Children V3.3 Play Document

Note: Please read below about the review before a freeze

The changes placed forward are as follows:

v3.3 changes
- Transport upgrade changed to provide only 2 choices of transport options
- Removed Transport Option for Terminators and Sonar formations (not viable within the list for the former and a mistake for the latter)
- Daemon Knights name change to House Devine Knights for the formations
- House Devine now only offers the one choice of 6 Daemon Knights for 400 points as a formation (no 4-6 option)
- Daemonic Pact upgrade has been added to the Noise Marine formation as standard (I allowed a 25 point overcosting for playtest purposes which is now being filled)
- Predator Upgrade changed to 'up to 3' rather than 2 for purchase reasons
- Predator upgrade added to list of upgrades for Terminators

This list will be available for 1 week for feedback and review. After that time, I will be looking to place a freeze on the development of this list for 1 year. This is to start to develop some real playtest data, and consistency for it's future.

I am comfortable that the list will hold it's own at this stage.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

I decided to make a force up to test V3.3.

I think I may play this one against my next opponent as I think it will be quite competitive:

2995 points & 10 activations

- Decadents + Noise Marines (possible garrison)
- Decadents + Noise Marines (possible garrison)
- Noise Marines + Rhinos + Degenerate
- Noise Marines + Rhinos + Degenerate
- Sonar Retinue
- Bike Retinue + Daemonic Pact (DP assists to get troops hiding in buildings)
- Daemon Engines
- Terminators
- House Devine
- Questor Titan

- Lesser Daemons x6
- Greater Daemon

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

damn i've just printed v3.2,oh well public library is gonna love me!!!


cheers
matt

Sorry about that. Hopefully won't need a change for at least another year

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

no worries,its my first foray into epic for a while so im gonna have to get used to all the experimenting.

luckily all the models i have ordered can still be used.

just out of curiosity (and this is a really stupid question) but do all titans have to be the same sort of build ie legs,body and guns?i only ask because ive just made what was supposed to be a doomwheel(for the fun of it) but it turns out that i really like it and want to use it in my EC army,kinda fits the sleek and fast image that i want for my army(btw im not planning on using them as the 2 bigger titans, just for the knights of perversion)).

like i said probably a really stupid question but i though id ask.


cheers
matt