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Red Corsairs (or generic Chaos Space Marines)
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:58 pm 
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I used to be concerned with this, but the idea of "40K players who cross over" is mostly a myth in my experience.  


In my experience, those are the majority of new Epic gamers in my area...

'40k for adults' is how we pitch it. :D




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:02 pm 
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Of all Epic gamers i know ca 60-70% have started with Wh40k.

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:23 pm 
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I am not to sure about the chaos icon special rules.

A single unit allows all of your dedicated untis of that type to recieve a decent boast in power.

i would make it that units in the icon bearers formation gain the bonus.

Also I would rewrd the chaos glory bonus to Formations dedicated to chaos glory recieve a +1 modifer to the combat resolution.

since inspiring works on a unit by unit case.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:29 pm 
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Is it so written so unclear? :(

You purchase an Chaos Icon Bearer per formation and the units listed above in this formations receive the bonus, not the listed units in whole army. Only the Icon of Chaos Glory gives Inspiring to the whole formation (again: not the whole army).

Chaos Icons
Each formation can have the Icon Bearer upgrade. An Icon dedicates the formation to one of the four Chaos Gods, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh or to Chaos Glory.
Each of the following units in the formation the Icon Bearer is attached to will gain benefits from being dedicated as long as the Icon Bearer remains on the table. Is the Icon Bearer destroyed the formations units will loose the benefit:
Chaos Terminators, Chosen, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Bikes, Chaos Raptors, Havocs.
Benefits:
- Above units in formations dedicated to Khorne or Slaanesh receive +1 on their CC value to a maximum of 2+.
- Above units in formations dedicated to Tzeentch or Nurgle gain the Invulnerable Save special ability.
- Formations dedicated to Chaos Glory gain the Inspiring special ability.

Much more clear? :)




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Kleomenes
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:50 pm 
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The icons seem like a bit of an exercise in micromanagement to me. Besides, if these are recently turned marines then they should be LESS chaosy than the Black Legion list, not moreso.

I understand the desire for a chaos list representing renegades, and can understand why such would follow the 40k codex, but I would express reservations at 1:1 mapping. Not least because 40k distorts matters with its ruleset and Apocalypse does so immensely.

I'd also echo Nealhunt here, both on comments about the Black Legion list (its my favourite of all EA lists in feel and focus*, which is the whole point of EA Army list design compared to 40k) and on the need to cater to the expectations of 40k Players. In W.Yorkshire, while most people who play or might play epic have played 40k in the past, they are not 40k players per se - They abandoned it long ago, or have certainly downgraded it on their list of priorities. Its more about recruiting former epic players, warmachine players and flames of war players up here!

It should be noted that the flavour of epic is one of the things people are interested in, apart from the rules. So far the decimator has also proved popular when people have asked about it but that might just be my enthusiasm for it!

I would contend the ogryn rich layout of the IG list in the EA book is more about pandering to older epic players to be honest.

Of course the above is my personal experience. But that is sort of the point when we discuss general trends such as "What should lists look like to draw people in"

*Except for KRIEG! but I havent actually had that one on the table yet- all in good time

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:01 pm 
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The thing with the Icons is only a idea i'm toying with.
The revamped summoning rules i'm more interested in.

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zombocom
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:13 pm 
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Icons seem more of a 40k scale thing to me.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:01 am 
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Besides one would think that you'd complain about the T'hawk what's-it-name there (with the TK cannon).


That would be like complaining about the Feral, Decimator, Death Wheel, Ravager, etc, no? :D

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zombocom
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:16 am 
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(Hena @ Feb. 29 2008,22:25)
QUOTE
Imagine if the black templars list was the only offical Marine list, and the standard codex list was an unofficial varient. That's how the current situation feels to me.

That would make no sense. There is bunch of BT specific stuff (like the initiates and such) that aren't supposed to be in main list.

That's precisely why it's a good comparison. If the BT list was the standard marine one, people would be confused about why, because, as you say, there is a bunch of BT specific stuff that aren't supposed to be in a main marine list.

I say that there is a bunch of stuff in the black legion list that isn't supposed to be in a main chaos list.

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zombocom
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:00 am 
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I don't think you understand my point at all.

It's not about where the units come from, it's about having a non "codex" list as the core, standard, official list.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:49 am 
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It's completely different. Those are not stuff nicked from other lists, but additional stuff in Epic. Usually epic has more especially in the Super-Heavy and Titan department than 40k.


Epic usually has considerably less than 40k actually.

For example, at least 9 types of Leman Russ are available for the core Guard army in 40k.
Only 3 types of Leman Russ are available for the core Guard army in Epic (And it's supposedly a tank-biased army too!).

4 Baneblade-hulled Super Heavy Tanks are available for the core Guard army in 40k.
2 Baneblade-hulled Super Heavy Tanks are available for the core Guard army in Epic.

4 Warhound Scout Titan weapons are available for use with any Imperial Army in 40k.
2 Warhound Scout Titan weapons are available for use with Imperial Armies in Epic.



Even the thunderhawk gunship has more weapon options in 40k (Bombs, Missiles, Turbolaser or Battlecannon) than it does in Epic.



It's not about where the units come from, it's about having a non "codex" list as the core, standard, official list.

Agreed... a big chunk of the issue is that the standard Chaos Marine list for Epic is very different to the standard Chaos Marine list for 40k.

Zombocom's point about 'It's just as if Black Templars were the only Marine list' is a good one.


I would really like to see this list put forward as an alternative Chaos Space Marine list, for full experimental status, ASAP.

I know that many love the style of the BL list, and I'd like to make clear that I think it only has a few balance problems (Which simply stick out a lot because most Epic lists are so finely balanced in comparison), and the list structure although not as good in concept as this Red Corsairs list, isn't unduly terrible (All those 0-x limits do provide a modicum of balance, even if they do enforce the same general theme on every BL army).

For me, this Red Corsairs list should have a higher priority for being tested and put forward than any other experimental army list... because it is exactly the kind of Chaos Marine list that I would find an inspiring temptation to play Chaos, and I don't think I'm alone in that.




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Crabowl
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:51 pm 
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Is it intentional that Baneblade has two extra twin heavy bolters and costs 25 points less than the loyalist ones? That kind of boost could help the guard version as well..

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