I'm fine with that if required. Does it really make them any cheaper or will they stay at the same cost (as in the Slaanesh Daemon Knights)?

What happens to the Defilers and their like? Will they also go to a 2+ initiative?

Will Black Legion (if they adopt Defiler formations) and Red Corsairs follow?

Like I said, it will not matter too much to the 2 lists I am doing. They will both pretty much have the same design principle.

I'm in favour of Daemon engines moving to 2+ across the cult lists - I'd leave defilers at 1+ though. It will just create issues with them being an upgrade as well. 2+ for daemon engines/1+ for defilers could be explained by larger more powerful daemons being bound into the engines making them more difficult to control.

I will update the list with the initiative rule then.

I take it by Defilers you also mean all Defiler variants? I will take that as a yes for now.

In the same vein, I guess the World Eaters will take the hit on the Daemon Assault and Support Engines. I hope that favours a move towards the Blood Rage rule I sent you *wink* *wink* *nudge* *nudge* *Say no More*



Thanks Steve.

I'm not sure this is true. Initiative is based on formations, not individual units. The idea of potential confusion came up in discussions on the Tau, but only theoretically. As far as I know, no one has reported any actual in-game confusion about "intitiave 1 units" being mixed in with "initiative 2 units" with either the Tau or Eldar.

Also, there are Defiler formations in L&D that are (effectively) 2+. If those are going to 1+ in the cult CSM lists but the other daemon engines are not that pretty much defeats the goal of consistency.

I've had no issues with mixed initiative values in the Inquisition lists either.

The only real potential issue with mixed initiatives is when formations are whittled down to only the common troops, but they have different initiatives.

For example, imagine a formation of guardians in wave serpents, and a formation of aspect warriors in wave serpents. Now imagine all the infantry are killed, leaving only the wave serpents (which then rally from being broken). You now have two identical formations of wave serpents, but one is initiative 1+, the other 2+.

I have a game tonight with this list.

My opponent is using the EC against me and has asked how many Noise Marines I have

It should be an interesting game...

I will get this and the previous game reported on when I get some free time:



Game was played with:
- 1+ initiative with Daemon Engines
- G.Daemon Summoning @ 8 points

Cheers.....

Would anyone have a problem if I drop the Daemon Engines and War machines by 25 points if I place these to a 2+ initiative?

Two quick battle reports to start off the development future for this list

Emperor's Children Vs Kult of Speed

Emperor's Children vs Space Marines

Regards...

Happy to say that I have hooked up a 3rd game for the Emperor's Children for this Thursday:



Changes and discussions
Greater Daemons will be 8 Summoning Points
Daemon Engines will remain at 1+ initiative with current point structures
Noise Marines will be allowed to use Dreadclaws

Goal
I will be looking to take the most 'gamey' stuff possible to see if I can push the list to it's most ugly incarnation.

Currently that may just be drop forces of Noise Marines and Decadents with a score of Daemons and Teleporting Terminators with Hell Knights or other Slaanesh Engines making their way up the table. Adding in 1 or 2 Sonar Retinues may also do the trick (Jump Pack + First Strike).

I am really missing some INF 'SCOUT' formations to really present the denial aspect, but I shall see how I go. Currently I have the SCOUT element in the World Eaters and it is a little something that keeps the two lists quite different for now.

If anyone has any ideas from the list that I should definately take, I am all ears

Well my opponent changed his force so I have updated the banner in the post above.

This has not really changed my view on a force. The initial ideas were

Option 1 - 2950 points & 10 activations
Daemon Knights x4 - 300
Daemon Knights x4 - 300
Daemon Knights x4 - 300
Daemon Knights x4 - 300
Daemon Knights x4 - 300
Daemon Knights x4 - 300
Daemon Knights x4 - 300
Questor Titan - 300
Questor Titan - 300
Subjugator Titan - 250


Option 2 - 2995 points & 9-10 Activations

Dev Cruiser 150

Decadents 350
-Dreadclaws
-Dreadnought
-Noise Marines Upgrade

Decadents 350
-Dreadclaws
-Dreadnought
-Noise Marines Upgrade

Noise Marines 375
-Dreadclaws
-Daemonic Pact

Daemon Knights 300
Daemon Knights 300
Bikes 250
Bikes 250
Questor 300
Subjugator 250
Lesser Daemons x6 120


For the game tonight, I am going to go with Option 2. Option 1 will be tested in a future game

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Changes to be looked at for V3.3 after tonight's game:

Fix Errors
- Add 'Mounted' to Bikes
- Add Dreadclaws upgrade to Noise Marine Retinue
- Place Greater Daemon Summoning cost to 8 points

Changes
- Transport options to change to:
Choose one transport option for the formation
3x Rhinos: 25 points
2x Rhino + Land Raider: 100 points*
2x Land Raiders + Rhino: 150 points*
3x Land Raiders: 200 points

*Still considering whether these will be an option

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

I thought Knights were 1 per 1000pts ? If not I do feel they need some restriction. list 1 isn't a EC army its a House Devine list. For the cult lists as a whole does there need to be some compulsion to take 1+ of the iconic core formation to reinforce that the list is a EC, WE, DG list etc rather than a Slaanesh CSM army.

I'm not sure that transport options are necessary above the standard options