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Black Legion rules review
Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:11 am 
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(zombocom @ May 24 2008,16:31)
QUOTE

(Steve54 @ May 24 2008,07:17)
QUOTE
Poor AA

And yet, in obliterators, they have some of the best AA in the game. Hmmm...

Try keeping a flak umbrella over BL - doesn't happen
Oblits in chosen are always suppressed and that leaves, in most armies, only 2 which are both slow. So you have to deploy in 2 groups and then anything with speed is unprotected once it moves.

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Steve54
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:29 am 
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Losing IC from the Feral is fine but is there any need to change the Decimator?
They are very rarely used in Tourney lists and with the current changes in stats and list structure they will be even rarer. Has anybody any actual game experience of them being overpowered? I've tried them a couple of dozen times and maybe 20% of the time do they do anything as they are too vulnerable - as they have to get closer than Imperial counterparts, and too short ranged.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 9:25 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 21 2008,23:01)
QUOTE
Army list changes:
  • Remove Obliterators upgrade option from Chosen
  • Add the Assault Company to the Chaos Titan Legion War Engine box
  • Greater Daemons reduced to 75 points OR to 6/7 summoning points
  • Ravager titan reduced to 625 points



Oblits: Seems wrong to remove them from the Terminator formation, and let?s face it: It?s a workaround, not the solution.

This digs into the greater Chaos AA coverage issue, which deserves a thread of its own with a look at the Hellblade and what stats we are working with. I think we?ve reached a consensus on the Hell Talon with

Hell Talon
Type Fighter-Bomber
Armour 5+,

Weapons
Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+ Fixed Forward
OR 30cm AA4+ Fixed Forward
Havoc Launcher 45cm AP4+ Fixed Forward,
Bombs 1BP Ignore Cover Fixed Forward

Price
200 points for 2

while the Hell Blade remained somewhat controversial at:

Hell Blade
Type Aircraft
Speed: Fighter
Armour -

Weapons
2x Twin-linked Autocannons 45cm AP4+/AT5+ Forward Arc
OR 30cm AA5+ Forward Arc

Price
225 points for 3

Discussion here:

http://forum.specialist-games.com/topic ... C_ID=12267

Assault Company Shrug. I don?t believe it?s necessary...

Greater Daemons
Lower summoning cost to 7. With 4D3, that?s workable.

Reducing the cost would make them look underpriced _if_ they make it, so I?d prefer more reliable summoning.

Ravager Titan
Would prefer weapons upgrade. 625 is cosmetically cheaper, might be workable as a supporting fire monster / LOS shielder, but the wimpiness of the Doomburner annoys me greatly...
:D


(Lord Inquisitor @ May 21 2008,23:01)
QUOTE

Unit changes:
  • Daemon Prince:
    Remove Titan Killer (1) from both weapons, but add Inspiring to the unit Notes.
  • Dreadnought
    Upgrade to Armour 3+
    (For the record, I’m very unsure about this one but if loyalist Dreadnoughts are getting this change, then I suppose Chaos Dreadnoughts should perhaps follow suit).
  • Predator
    Upgrade to FF4+
  • Decimator
    Remove Macro Weapon from the Decimator Cannon.
  • Feral Titan:
    Remove Ignore Cover from the Hellmouth weapon.


All okay with me except the Decimator/Feral thing: It should be the other way around, the murderous superheavy shell from the Decimator Cannon causing MW but losing IC and the fiery death of the Hellmouth having Ignore Cover but no MW.




(Lord Inquisitor @ May 21 2008,23:01)
QUOTE

Cosmetic changes:
  • Tidy up the Chaos Lord/Chaos Space Marine Lord/Chaos Warlord malarkey.
  • Rename Chosen “Chaos Terminators”
  • Give Chaos Rhinos Comb-bolters rather than Stormbolters.
  • Make Initiative rating penalties/bonuses more obvious and clear.
  • Give Dreadclaws a datafax.



Yep.



(Lord Inquisitor @ May 21 2008,23:01)
QUOTE

Long term changes
Some of these may be a little crazy, love to get feedback on all of these. These are for thinking about prior to the full review.
*Snip*



As I mentioned above I?d consider recognized stats for those beautiful FW aircraft a must, and these would ideally be tied into the greater Chaos AA / Obliterator issue, which is a priority IMO.

All of the other changes are very reasonable and I look forward to see them implemented.

Especially the Chaos Vindicator bit as I have a couple (ancient Rhino coversions) painted, waiting to be unleashed!
:devil:




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 10:50 am 
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The fighter is far too long ranged compered to every other aircaraft in the game. Making them twin reapers though (the chaos autocannon) fixes that though. Also for the above the fighters are way better than the fighter bombers.

Each fighter having twin reapers, 30cm, AP3+/AT5+/AA5+ means they can be dead cheap (3 for 100 even) and you get plenty of AA cover then as well!




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 11:03 am 
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Making them twin reapers though (the chaos autocannon) fixes that though


Are they actually twin reapers though?

I'd prefer the name stay factually correct (If they are actually Autocannons) and we fudge the name a little, so:

Hellblade Autocannons, 15cm, AA5+

...or whatever.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 11:17 am 
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A reaper is an autocannon. And it would definatively be wysiwyg.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 11:22 am 
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The Hell Blade is armed with two Twin Autocannons NOT a Twin Reaper Autocannon.

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Kleomenes
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:26 pm 
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Call them "Abaddon Pattern" and give them reapers ;)

I mean TRC is right, a reaper is basically a twin-autocannon with good ammo feeds.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 12:34 pm 
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Just call it a 'Hellblade Autocannon' and you can be technically correct, and still change the range.

Chris' name change solution doesn't fly with me*.



* Pun intended. :D




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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:47 pm 
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So you prfer to change the name to whatever and stats to Reapers (which are great for this type of fighter and don't step too badly on the other fighters stats)? Well, okay, since all i care about is the stats :)

The twin autocannon makes it to hot vs armour and completely negates any reason to take the other airplane.

But come on I have seen the model, how do they not look like reapers?

Oh and how are havocs AP4+?

So
Fighter, no save, 30cm AP3+/AT5+/AA5+
3 for 100 (cheap light fighter)
and
Fighter bomber, 5+ save, 45cm AT4+, (havoc is what strength 4?) 45cm AP6+, 30cm AA4+, 15cm 1bp ignore cover
2 for 200

Covers all Chaos's air needs and with the fighters that cheap and cheerful the pressure is off the oblit AA solution.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 6:45 pm 
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(Irondeath @ May 25 2008,16:25)
QUOTE
All okay with me except the Decimator/Feral thing: It should be the other way around, the murderous superheavy shell from the Decimator Cannon causing MW but losing IC and the fiery death of the Hellmouth having Ignore Cover but no MW.

You know, that makes a fair bit of sense... Maybe we'll go with that. Changes noted in red in the original post.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 7:13 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 26 2008,18:45)
QUOTE

(Irondeath @ May 25 2008,16:25)
QUOTE
All okay with me except the Decimator/Feral thing: It should be the other way around, the murderous superheavy shell from the Decimator Cannon causing MW but losing IC and the fiery death of the Hellmouth having Ignore Cover but no MW.

You know, that makes a fair bit of sense... Maybe we'll go with that. Changes noted in red in the original post.

Good. Currently the Feral is more overpowered than the Decimator, so needs more of a nerf. Losing the Macro is a better idea for the feral.

The decimator is harder to use due to it's slow speed, so should have the more powerful, macro, gun.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 7:46 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 26 2008,19:45)
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You know, that makes a fair bit of sense... Maybe we'll go with that. Changes noted in red in the original post.

Thanks!

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Irondeath
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 7:56 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ May 26 2008,16:47)
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So you prfer to change the name to whatever and stats to Reapers (which are great for this type of fighter and don't step too badly on the other fighters stats)? Well, okay, since all i care about is the stats :)

The twin autocannon makes it to hot vs armour and completely negates any reason to take the other airplane.

But come on I have seen the model, how do they not look like reapers?

Oh and how are havocs AP4+?

So
Fighter, no save, 30cm AP3+/AT5+/AA5+
3 for 100 (cheap light fighter)
and
Fighter bomber, 5+ save, 45cm AT4+, (havoc is what strength 4?) 45cm AP6+, 30cm AA4+, 15cm 1bp ignore cover
2 for 200

Covers all Chaos's air needs and with the fighters that cheap and cheerful the pressure is off the oblit AA solution.

I?ve argued for a combined statline for all four autocannon barrels before.

It boils down to this: Do we stick to 40k ranges on the Hell Blade or do we use artistic license in the name of playablity in E:A?


And it?s "screw 40k ranges" IMO.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 8:19 pm 
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Screw the ranges, call it a 'Hellblade Autocannon'.

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