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Red Corsairs (or generic Chaos Space Marines)
zombocom
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 3:54 pm 
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I certainly agree that there should probably be a superheavy for each god. Pusblade, Brass Scorpion and one each for Slannesh and Tzeentch. Dunno if there's any fluff for any of these in apocalypse?

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:05 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 28 2008,11:26)
QUOTE
I definately prefer this list in concept to the standard Black Legion one. It matches the 40k army ideals and units much more closely, which can only be a good thing.

Units like the decimator, death wheel and feral titan are all epic inventions, and pretty much rendered unneccesary by the chaos baneblade/pusblade, brass scorpion and chaos warhound.

Given that the brass scorpion is an original epic invention anyway, and that there is even a model for it if you can find it, it seems daft that it isn't represented in the official epic chaos marine list.

I am definately in favour of an epic chaos list that represents the war engines available in 40k, though adding others is not utterly out of the window.

If you want a list to reflect the 40K codex, that's fine.  The BL list is supposed to represent the Black Legion, not follow the 40K codex.  It didn't even really follow the old one.

Your preferences are, of course, your preferences.  I'm not trying to change them.  I just wanted to point out that your criticism of the BL list is based on it failing to do something it never attempted to do.

As far as the new units in BL, the background information states that they created all manner of daemon engines (undivided), not just the Defilers represented in 40K.  The early versions of the list didn't even have titans, because the plan, from back in the glory days when we thought there would be money for new sculpts, was to exclude chaos titans and instead have WE daemon engines.  The plan and the units were designed by Jervis and, as far as I know, they were reviewed by the 40K design team.

Titans were only added much later, when it became clear that there would be no new models.  As part of this compromise, the decision was made that if chaos titans had to be included as a practical matter, they should be substantially differentiated from the loyalist titans, in the same way as the Banelord/Warlord.

The WE daemon engines and the variant titans may be "epic inventions" but they aren't something a bunch of fans made up.

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zombocom
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Neal: I'm aware of the history of the Daemon Engines in the BL list, which is why I called them "epic inventions" rather than "fan inventions", but the key thing for me is that a 40k player moving across to Epic wants to see just about all the options they're used to using available in an Epic scale list.

This is why the Steel Legion list includes Ogryns for example. They don't mesh with the fluff of the steel legion, but they're there because it's really a generic Imperial Guard list, and so the main guard options are all available.

The chaos marines list is different, and as you say is a more specifically Black Legion list. I don't think it's a bad thing to have a Black Legion list, but I do think it's a bad thing that it's the only official chaos marine list.

To me the black legion list is a varient list, and a list more like this one should be the standard chaos marine list.

Imagine if the black templars list was the only offical Marine list, and the standard codex list was an unofficial varient. That's how the current situation feels to me.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:15 am 
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[quote="Crabowl,Feb. 28 2008,15:38"][/quote]
Quite a lot to answer :)

1. Codex Marines can have all Terminator&Thunderhawk army too. Yes it is boring so there aren't many players who field this :D

2. I use only war engines available in Apocalypse and Imperial Armour. This are units Wh40k player will know and recognise. I hope GW willput up some datasheeds for Tzeentch and Slaanesh war engines soon.

3. Hmm. Right. What about 35pts as upgrade?

4. I see every warband be led by a powerful individual (= Chaos Lord) which chooses to follow an even more powerful individual (= Chaos Warlord).

5. Well it is a support formation so you can have as many as you allowed to but in the end it doesn't matter. Applying a 0-1 restriction would be only formal and wouldn't have any in-game effect.

6. Ooops. To much copy and paste. Next version will have the whole text.

7. Obliterators will stay as is for now.

8. They have inspiring because the FW Chaos Warhound has a Dirge Caster which unsettles the enemy and makes all friendly units in 12" radius Fearless. I adopted this to all Chaos Titans.

9. Perhabs. It is a silly rule indeed.

10. see Nr4.

11.  Well it doesn't hurt to include it to show that chaos has bigger spaceships than cruisers :)

12. Will be edited.

13. Copy and paste error too. Will be edited.

14. Copy and paste error too. Will be edited.

Well...sometimes i HAVE to much time :D

Now i'm thinking about merging Daemonic Pact and Icon Bearer. Because in Wh40k you need Icons to be able to summon Lesser Daemons and then they will stay there until banished back to the warp.
My idea would be that you could have multiple Icons and each Icon would enable you to summon x Lesser Daemons.
So you would have a visual marker to see which formation is even able to summon daemons.

For Greater Daemons you need to have a Chaos Champion possessed by him who is sacrificed (= removed) to be replaced by the Greater Daemon.

Augment Summoning would then be gone. But because of Characters can have a personal Icon chaos (War)Lords and Champions could function as Icons to summon daemons too.

This would be a good way to use your stands with Chaos Lord and Icon Bearer glued together on the same base, because those wouldn't be two separate characters anymore.




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Crabowl
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:58 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Feb. 28 2008,23:15)
QUOTE
Now i'm thinking about merging Daemonic Pact and Icon Bearer. Because in Wh40k you need Icons to be able to summon Lesser Daemons and then they will stay there until banished back to the warp.
My idea would be that you could have multiple Icons and each Icon would enable you to summon x Lesser Daemons.
So you would have a visual marker to see which formation is even able to summon daemons.

I once made a chaos list myself and simplified the summoning rules 'slightly':

"Daemon Pool starts the game off table and any formation that has an Icon Bearer may summon either up to 2D3 Lesser Daemons or one Greater Daemon before the formation?s action test roll is made. Summoned units must be placed within 15cm of the Icon Bearer and they become a part of the formation that summoned them. Daemon Pool may never be the Break Their Spirit formation and if Victory Points are used, daemon units are counted separately at their respected points costs."

I kinda like rules that don't take a PhD to understand them and two pages of special rules to come up with a really stupid system that takes countless threads to clarify all the cases that they create, but hey that's just me..


(BlackLegion @ Feb. 28 2008,23:15)
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For Greater Daemons you need to have a Chaos Champion possessed by him who is sacrificed (= removed) to be replaced by the Greater Daemon.

Ha, this is so stolen for my next list.


(BlackLegion @ Feb. 28 2008,23:15)
QUOTE
Augment Summoning would then be gone. But because of Characters can have a personal Icon chaos (War)Lords and Champions could function as Icons to summon daemons too.

Characters can have them, but isn't Epic using the less wargear the better approach?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:07 am 
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Imagine if the black templars list was the only offical Marine list, and the standard codex list was an unofficial varient. That's how the current situation feels to me.


Well put.


10. Free Chaos Warlord. Is there some fluffy reason why every chaos army must be led by a warlord? There's one for orks but..

Yep.

Charge 50pts for this fella, or even 25pts.

Currently this is a non-scaling, free upgrade, and that's a bad thing; Epic is supposed to pride itself on balance; Unlike the Ork list, this upgrade doesn't balance out an inherent weakness in the list (Init 3+ basic) but instead simply makes an army with an already-good Initiative rating (Generally 1+) better, for free...




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:09 pm 
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Ok. The Chaos Warlord will be an mandatory upgrade for +50pts.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:55 pm 
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Updated to Version 3.5

I hope all the missing text and typos are gone now.

I will wait with the changing of the summoning rules until i gain more support to do it :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:57 pm 
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I am now ridiculously tempted to start a Red Corsairs army; I was going to to a traitor guard themed L&TD, but now...




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:59 pm 
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LOL
Do you hear the voices of Chaos, too? It is a good pain... ;)

But i'm glad that my army idea has caused so much interest and feedback :)




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:00 pm 
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Yes, I hear the voices of Evil & Chaos.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:02 pm 
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Somehow i depict your Chaos Warlord unit as a Daemon Prince with the look of a Werewolve :D

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:04 pm 
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Not a terrible idea. :D

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:25 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 28 2008,16:23)
QUOTE
Imagine if the black templars list was the only offical Marine list, and the standard codex list was an unofficial varient. That's how the current situation feels to me.

This is more than a bit hyperbolic. The difference in the two lists is actually pretty small.  Aside from the WE selections, what kind of force could you build with this list that couldn't also be built with BL?  Almost none.  Anything it can do that BL can't  (Deathwing, air assault) could be done by playing the Codex Marine list as "marines gone bad."

It's a fine list, but it's not novel except in its "on paper" feel.

That's obviously important to you and I don't begrudge you your project.  I just get tired of hearing how wretched the Black Legion list is because it has the audacity to diverge from the ridiculously bland 40K "Marines with skulls" chaos.

the key thing for me is that a 40k player moving across to Epic wants to see just about all the options they're used to using available in an Epic scale list

I used to be concerned with this, but the idea of "40K players who cross over" is mostly a myth in my experience.  It's extremely uncommon.  The rare players that do crossover fall into 2 camps:
1)  It's a different game and this is fine.
2)  I want to be able to arm every one of my IG heavy weapons teams individually in Epic, too.

The former don't need to match and the latter aren't going to be happy until Epic is 40K Apocalypse with smaller minis.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: [fanlist] Red Corsairs (or general Chaos Marines)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Ok back to summoning and icons :)

Summoning Lesser Daemons
Formations that have one or more units with the Chaos Warlord, Chaos Lord, Chaos Champion and/or Icon Bearer upgrade (see the army list below) are able to summon daemons to the battlefield. This units are called Focus units. In order to summon daemons a players must first purchase a Daemon Pool from which all formations wich are able to will summon. Players should either write down the contents of their Daemon Pool or use tokens to indicate the number of each Lesser and Greater Daemon they have available to summon during a game. The Chaos player?s opponent is always able to view the number of Lesser and Greater Daemons remaining in the Daemon Pool. The Daemon Pool is kept off the board and daemons are removed from it as formations summon daemons onto the board.
At the start of that formation?s action, before the action test dice roll is made, the formation may summon daemonic units from the Daemon Pool. Summoning allows you to call 2D3 summoning points worth of daemonic units to the battlefield (the number of summoning points it costs to summon a unit will be listed on its data sheet, but as a general rule Lesser Daemons cost 1 summoning points each). Summoning points must be used to summon daemonic units from the Daemon Pool and summoned units are brought into play immediately. If for any reason any summoning points generated are not used, they are lost and may not be carried over into subsequent turns. You may only summon as many daemons as you have left in your Daemon Pool. Left over daemonic units may be summoned during a later turn. Daemonic units that are destroyed are removed from play and are not put back into the Daemon Pool. Broken formations or formations that don't have a suitable unit for summoning may not summon daemons.

Summoned units must be set up with their base within 5cm of any Focus unit from their formation. They may not be set up in the Zone of Control of an enemy unit or in impassable terrain.
Summoned units count as part of the formation for all rules purposes as long as they remain on the battlefield. The only exception to the normal rules is when a summoned unit is destroyed it does not cause a blast marker to be placed on the formation. They are otherwise counted as normal units, and are included when working out if a formation outnumbers an opponent in an assault or is broken by blast markers, etc. Note that Daemons that are
killed in an assault do count towards the number of units killed by the enemy when working out modifiers to the result dice roll. If a formation loses an assault (see Core Rules 1.12.8 Loser Withdraws) you remove extra hits from the formation before it is considered broken and all the remaining summoned units are removed.
Summoned units remain on the battlefield (until the end phase of the turn in which they are summoned. In the end of the rally phase, after formations have attempted to rally, all summoned units in the formation are removed from the board and placed back into the Daemon Pool.) <---perhabs loose this?

Summoned units that are destroyed are not put back into the Daemon Pool. Note that this may lead to the formation breaking if the number of Blast Markers on the formation is greater than the number of units left in play after the summoned units have been removed. When a formation breaks any summoned units (including Greater Daemons) in the formation are lost in the warp and considered destroyed. They do not go back into the Daemon Pool.

Summoning Greater Daemons
You need an Chaos Warlord, Chaos Lord or Chaos Champion character in order to summon a Greater Daemon. At the start of that formation?s action, before the action test dice roll is made, simply remove the unit this character is attached to as casualty and replace it with a Greater Daemon (this causes no Blastmarker).
Players may only have one Greater Demon in the formation on the board at one time. For example, if you already have summoned a Greater Daemon on the board you are not allowed to summon another Greater Daemon intothe same formation until that first Greater Daemon has been removed from play.

Chaos Icons
Each formation can have the Icon Bearer upgrade. An Icon dedicates the formation to one of the four Chaos Gods, Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh or to Chaos Glory.
Each of the following units will gain benefits from being dedicated asl ong as the Icon Bearer remains on the table. Is the Icon Bearer destroyed the formations units will loose the benefit:
Chaos Terminators, Chosen, Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Bikes, Chaos Raptors, Havocs.
Benefits:
- Units in formations dedicated to Khorne or Slaanesh receive +1 on their CC value to a maximum of 2+.
- Units in formations dedicated to Tzeentch or Nurgle gain the Invulnerable Save special ability.
- Formations dedicated to Chaos Glory gain the Inspiring special ability.


Thoughts? Typos? Points cost ideas for the Icons?




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