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Iron Warriors 1.0 - updated list 8th September

 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:01 am 
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I would offer my two cents.

1.I dont think that deamons should be part of the list, to define them as a siege army I think it should steer clear of some of the norms of BL.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:10 am 
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I would offer my two cents.

1. I dont think that deamons should be part of the list, to define them as a siege army I think it should steer clear of some of the norms of BL.

2. The banebllades looks like we are adding a tank because of 40k fluff, not sure it belongs in this list.

3. Artillery pieces in tank formations is a waste, you would not mix the two types of vehicles, they each serve a purpose. Tanks, direct fire and infantry support, Artillery a purely a suppressing/reduction/disruption tool and have no place in direct fire duels.

4. I would remove cult marines from the choices, fluff suggests a cult of bezerkers within IW, so maybe they can replace raptors as an option to further separate this list from BL.

5. I would suggest that rather than replace infantry with alternatives, you should add, a siege army is about large infantry formations and artillery that can reduce its opponent by attrition.

6. To further add variation from BL, why not have a formation of Havocs.

For me a siege army has good amounts of Infantry, Armour and Artillery, fast attack options should be at a minimum, specialist used to force a breach once the hard work has been done.

Cheers
Aaron


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:25 am 
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The one thing I was looking for in this list was the slave labor cults - swarms of junk infantry kept in line by a few chaos marines - ie - 1 chaos marine stands for every 4 slave labor stands.... just an idea. cus that's what i remember the most from storm of iron was the slave labor and how they tried to break free and rebel when the masters are gone. could make some rule that says - if all masters gone, unit is almost impossible to regroup.(busy revolting and stuff).


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 4:26 am 
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Lord Aaron wrote:
could make some rule that says - if all masters gone, unit is almost impossible to regroup.(busy revolting and stuff).


The Chaos Squat list has a rule to this effect for their slaves.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:22 am 
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Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
played a game with this list the other day. 4000pts vs minervans
i didnt take a very optimised list (3 formations of 6 raiders, 2 terminator formations, 1 with a SC, 2 baneblades, 2 artillery formations, helltalons, and a reaver) but the following things stood out pretty immediately:

1) the reaver is TERRIBLE. compared to the imperial reaver (which is cheaper) its firepower is very poor, and its power ram is no enough to make up for it. its fairly safe to say i wont be taking this again. not convinced the seigelord is much better (notably because it trades two of its arms for less than 1 corvus assault pod worth of troops, and 8 is an awkward size for the list) but i'd be more inclined to try it.

2) things break easily. not having lords on the raiders was something i didnt notice till i started to deploy (and had to re-locate my SC into the terminators, a suboptimal choice to be sure) and it meant that compared to the IG army, i was running away all the damn time.

3) no character (and therefore) SC option on the raider/predator formations kinda sucks.

anyway, i got outclassed in basically anything i attempted (his artillery blew mine away pretty much immediately, my helltalons got smashed by his thunderbolts, his tanks shot mine to pieces, and his titan and deathstrikes completely destroyed mine) and a lot of this was me being outplayed (my opponent was new to epic, but not to wargaming in general, so i pointed out a lot of the mistakes i made in time for him to capitalise on them) but the list didnt feel very solid

now i admit that i didnt take infantry in seigeworks, and i certainly didnt take a good list (while his was quite solid) but i really felt like the same list would have worked much better with as skaros loyalist marines instead


What list are you using?
1 The 'Reaver' is the standard BL Ravager no power ram or CC weapon, the siegelord trades one arm for either a CC weapon or 10 capacity pod

2 No chaos army has option to put characters in AV

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:24 am 
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Thanks for all the input guys and sorry for the delay. I'll read through the thread and put up a list of possible changes tomorrow at the latest

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:22 am 
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Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
my memory is that the IW have very close ties with the raptor cult, and they generally dont have daemons (except, according to the latest GK FAQ, for obliterators which now count as daemons)

Nightlords are more Raptor-tastic. IW's, while they do use Raptors, are all about the Oblit cult.

nealhunt wrote:
Siegehammer: I would ballpark this at about 250 points, but 275 is definitely close enough to start testing.

275 is way overpriced. I'd say 250 is probably as well. Compared to a basic Retinue, for the same points per base, you're giving up all ranged attacks, and all upgrade options bar Rhinos, in exchange for an extra pip of CC. The only way I can see to use these guys to take advantage of their strength is to use the final activation of a turn to move them into assault range, leave them inside their Rhinos, and to hope to get the initiative the next turn and assault with them in the first activation. With some short range weapons (15cm heavy flamers or multi-meltas), infiltrator, or with a points reduction, they'd be more useful.

Quote:
Armor companies: I'm not quite sure of the purpose of splitting them into Vindicators/all-other-armor. Could there be a single armor formation with all the options (or most of them)?

Storm of Iron, for instance, has instances of all-Vindy assault formations pulverising walls. But, as you say, they could be incorporated into the general Armoured formation.

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Daemons: No daemons at all?

Nope. IW's bind demons to their vehicles, weapons and to their bodies, or ascend to demon-prince-hood, but they don't summon them so they can run around loose.

I've got some Siegehammer marines on the conversion table (Berserkers who will be losing their bunny ears), a trio of Doomblasters on the painting table, and some Dark Realm "dreadnoughts" in blisters to do something with, so I'm hoping to try out some of this on the table at some point in the next couple of months.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:35 am 
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Looking at the list you have Decimators and Stormswords at the same price.

Consider that Decimators are much better than Stormswords, they shouldn't really be costing the same ammount. I'd recommend raising the price on the Decimator because I've always felt it to be overpowered for its price.

Had a thought about an Obliterator formation; Why not say that Obliterator formations don't have the teleport rule? It'd be no different to the rule for Scout bikes in the Speed Freeks list, or the Scout Rough Riders in the Krieg list, and it'd stop them completely dominating the games.

I still think it'd be cool to see the Ordinatus as armed with an indirect-firing Quake Cannon or similar, rather than being a copy of the Ordinatus Mars.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 12:53 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Had a thought about an Obliterator formation; Why not say that Obliterator formations don't have the teleport rule?

Something similar was ticking through my head earlier today too. Oblits are very characterful in IW armies, and that would make a formation of them more manageable in-game.


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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:21 am 
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What role would oblits play then though? The only use for them would be as a blitzguard whihc doesn't seem particularily 'fluffy' or the making of a good list to play against.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:32 am 
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maybe give them a truly awesome FF skill, give people incentives to put their lords in with them. as a full formation though, well thats a tough one. maybe they're meant to be garrissoned onto the forwards objectives to provide AA cover. thats probably how i'd use them anyway...

also, yeah, my list was apparently not this one afterall, dunno where i got it from, but it was v1.5 of whichever it was.
i will say though, that no OTHER chaos list has lords as AV options, but the regular marines do, and one would think the iron warriors would be where you'd go to play a pure mechanised force...

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:42 am 
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Steve54 wrote:
What role would oblits play then though? The only use for them would be as a blitzguard whihc doesn't seem particularily 'fluffy' or the making of a good list to play against.

Well they'd still be available as upgrades for other formations, so the new role would be in addition to their current one.

Obliterator formations would be able to garrison, so I could see them setting up a firebase on Overwatch, and then pushing forwards, perhaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:57 am 
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The problem with Oblits is that they cost so damn much.

While the concept may be 'cool' most developers quickly learn that such a units viability as a larger formation is a hassle.

At 85 points each (keeping Teleport) and a formation of 5 maybe (? - remember for basing purposes that is anywhere from 15 - 25 obliterators!), that is a cost of 425 points. That could be a serious strain on most armies - especially a chaos one where the core unit is 300 points. Even at a reduction for the formation it is a large cost.

Take away Teleport and you now have another unit and the need for a new datafax for them. In doing that, you may get away with 100 points off the formation (?) for what good however - garrison? That is still a lot of points just standing there for 15cm move and 5 units.

The other option I can think of is upgrading base troops so not adding to the unit, but rather replacing units with Obliterators. That would make it cheaper overall and allow further customization as well as upgrading characters!

Just a crazy idea from left field :)

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:08 am 
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Quote:
At 85 points each (keeping Teleport) and a formation of 5 maybe, that is a cost of 425 points.

That doesn't sound so bad actually.

Quote:
remember for basing purposes that is anywhere from 15 - 25 obliterators!

I wouldn't worry about the availability of Obliterators.

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 Post subject: Re: Iron Warriors 0.2
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:51 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
remember for basing purposes that is anywhere from 15 - 25 obliterators!

I wouldn't worry about the availability of Obliterators.


No no. You misunderstand me. I was talking about the concept rather than the execution. Does a cult of 15 - 25 obliterators all together concern anyone in so far as character? If not, then that is fine. As long as that is what people like the look of. I guess it would work.

Personally as to the cost, I find 425 points quite a large cost for the unit. They may hit you with their CC or FF, however with no MW attack or EA, give me 4 chaos terminators for 275 points any day.

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