I think that is a vast improvement. I have some observations and questions but no major criticisms.

Decadents might be something to watch. They're slightly upgunned CSMs but the cost is about the same per-unit. Smaller formation size might add fragility to offset that. I assume they should have a Deamonic Pact upgrade?

What's the scoop on Sonars' move? Are you just giving them a non-jump pack option so they can use Dreadclaws?

Noise Marines might be a bit expensive. The per-unit cost in BL would come out to 225. With a 50 point Lord, that's still only 275. Did you bump them up to reduce the temptation to go all-Fearless?

Knights might be a bit cheap. For the same price as Land Raiders, they are better - weaker armor but Fearless, better CC, better firepower, faster + walker. I know you bumped the per-unit price compared to L&D, but they have better SR, initiative, accessibility and formation composition options in this list so it might not be enough. One option might be to make them unruly and drop their Initiative to 2+.

I think you could move Terminators and Daemon Engines to a support section for flavor reasons. I don't expect they will be a major problem with respect to balance but I do think if you are going to allow some extreme builds that they will need to be tested.

What's the goal behind the Noise Marine upgrade? (I'm not harassing you about mixed formations; I'm just curious about the design concept)

I disagree with Hena on the Ignore Cover in assaults. That's fairly easy to work out.

----

Just a spitball idea...

I know you like the mutant/possessed concept. Another option to include that instead of Sonars might be 20cm move/Infiltrate CC unit representing snake bodies and such. They could be Scouts if you feel the list needs a Scout unit. Bikes still give you a fast infantry option if you replace Sonars.

- Terminators: I could restrict them for fluff reasons. It is always an option. Let's see where this list goes. Just know that it can be done at any time if required
- Daemon Knights: I hear you. I still need to look at them as well as some other units. The pricing was from Lord I's list that was at version 2.1



- It is the one unit I have had to go back to several times to review. It is not a hard thing to remove and no points would really need to be changed. Like the Termies above, let's see what impact it has from everyone else. I have no real burning issues on its removal if really required.



Easily done. But no pink then!




I do hear you and am not ignoring this. I just do not see Greater daemons ever being used in C.Marine lists and any small deviation to encourage their use is what I am after. What is the 'breaking point' at which people will say "yes, that is now a consideration". At their current state of 75 points and 7 summoning points, I still cannot see them being a serious option. The Degenerate is still a 50 point purchase which may still put people off this tactic.

I plan to playtest it at some time. Yes they are effective. Until they actually become a consideration for players however, their addition to a list is almost page filler. Let's see how we go with them shall we?

I really appreciate the feedback BL

By my points there is a 10 point margin which is made up by the purchase of Dreadclaws or Noise Marines. The DP puts them to ~231 points. Put them in a role taking advantage of either of the two mentioned upgrades and they come in at about correct. It's 6 points that I thought was not worth taking to 250 points.



That is a mistake after deleting the Possessed. The Sonar are just Raptors with a First Strike and reduced CC to even them out in combat potential. The Sonar name was adopted in line with their Doom Sirens. I have just uploaded another copy with this mistake removed. Thanks for that




No. I bumped the 25 point cost due to a unit of 4 Fearless going to 6 Fearless has a whole dynamic change (they do not break as easily for one thing). For this purpose I placed in the extra cost. With the ability to take on upgrades as well, wouldn't that be a fair assessment in preparation for playtests?




Yes, I hear you. I will start to work on their points costs this week. Rather than touch initiative, it would be less disruptive and confusing to merely effect their points for now I think.



I could just add the dreaded 0-X restriction. That way I have done away with the tiers. Any real issue with that proposal?



I just thought it would be neat to have a mixed formation available if the player required it. It does not seem disruptive (mind the pun), and allows some Noise Marines to Drop pod. I think it is worth playing, and being an option, it is not forcing anyone to take them.



Well they are there for now until playtests or opinions show otherwise



As stated above, that was a mistake. No Possessed in this list for now. I was against the Scout idea, however your snake idea is awesome!! I wonder if models are a problem? I will definately consider it as long as they have a role in the force. At present, everything fits nicely IMO. Leave that one with me however.

Thanks for taking the time to give me the observations.

There's also the concern that you can only have one Greater Daemon. Not a big consideration, but something that should be taken into account.

Morgan Vening
- Edited for clarity, and because using "considered" three times in two sentences makes me look like I've got a language deficiency.

Personally though, on a side note, I'd rather see Daemon pool become more amalgamated.

You purchase Daemon Pool at 20-25* points. To summon a lesser daemon costs 1 Summoning Point, and 1 Daemon Pool. To summon a greater daemon costs 7-8* Summoning Points, and 4-5* daemon pool. When a greater daemon goes back, you lose 1-2* daemon pool for each wound he's taken.

For lesser daemons, there's no real change (except if price goes to 25). For greater daemons, it frees up a much larger opportunity chance. If your Augment guys are killed off/broken, or not in a workable decent tactical position, you don't have a relatively large deadweight in your army. It just adds a flexibility to an otherwise rigid set of purchases Multiple Augmenters aren't a requirement for the possibility of a greater daemon, just allow the option to get one.

* Variable numbers require a greater consideration than I'm giving to it at the moment. More interested in if the idea is workable.

Morgan Vening

I have moved this idea to the following thread:

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=18402

Slaanesh Daemon Knights

I know the comparison has been made to Land Raiders in the past. In this respect it is not exactly 'apples with apples'.

Looking through the rules the closest I can find is the Defiler for a cost comparison. Judging by abilities I would rate these two as pretty much the same as the defiler makes up the lost AP shooting in the charge and CC effectiveness.

Now Defilers are 75 points each (upgrade) or 68.75 points as a group of 4.

Keeping the Slaanesh Daemon Knights at 75 points does appear to be a fair comparison. The ability to take their number beyond 4 may be the decider here. Due to this I am thinking of the following cost for the Daemon Knights:

4-6 Slaanesh Daemon Knights
275 first 4 units (comparable to Defilers)
+100 per extra unit

Effectively the cost for taking them as a formation greater than 4 is an extra 25 points. Are people OK with that?

Based on the feedback I am also considering restricting them to either a 0-2 or maybe one formation per 1000 points. (same consideration for Terminators)

Thoughts people?

The Questor and Subjugator have already been raised by +25 points due to the higher strategy rating. So that is done.

Slaanesh Daemon Knights & Scout: I never knew they had scout!! I may go for the alternative then (+50 points):

4-6 Slaanesh Daemon Knights
300 first 4 units (comparable to Defilers)
+100 per extra unit


So now we are just left with the Questor and Subjugator which as stated above, have been upped in price

I am happy to go with the above. Others?

Knights are 275 for 4 in the L&D and they have better SR and Initiative in this list. I'd say a minimum of 300.

OK

I will update the list with the changes and fix a few ommisions that have also been found

It is up for another playtest next Thursday so it would be good to get all these things corrected before then.

I have just updated the list to V3.2 with the following changes/additions:

- Added Teleport to Terminators (which was missing)
- Added Scout to Slaanesh Daemon Knights (which was missing)
- Updated pricing of the Daemon Knights
- Restricted the selections of Emperor's Children Terminators and Daemon Knights within the list
- Changed the upgrade option for the Armoured Support to keep the 'sacred number' in tact.

The latest version has been updated on the front page and is here for convenience: Emperor's Children V3.2 Play Document

I did see those decisions.

My question is whether this decision was made to keep the costs of the formations down to assist with an activation count?

Cost in this list is not a problem IMO (playtests forthcoming), so I did not see any reason to consider it.

Let me know

Cheers...

Cheaper/more activations.
Consistent Initiative across lists.
Stylistically fits with unruly daemon-possessed vehicles.

Personally, I'm okay with it but I think it needs to be consistent across the cult lists - either they all get a benefit and go to 1+ or they all don't.