Ok i guess the whole affair did go as this:

frogbear: I have a World Eaters army list

Dobbsy: I too.

Community: It would be better to have only one World Eaters army list.

frogbear and Dobbsy: Ok but we disagree with each others list.

Community: So call one list World Eaters and the other Khorne Warband.

Dobbsy: Ok. So i keep World Eaters.

frogbear: Ok. So i rename my list Khorne Warband AND also World Eaters and now i have two lists.

Community:  

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

I believe people thought you were going to develop a "Khorne Warband" army with mixed Chaos Space Marine, Daemon, and non-Marine elements, while Dobbsy would be developing a "Chaos Space Marine"-focused "World Eaters" army list; both of which lists would share some common Khornate rules and units, but would be quite different in setup.

So, you would be "Khornate Warband" Sub-Champ and Dobbsy would be "World Eaters" Sub-Champ and you'd work together on special rules, but work on your own army lists.

I don't believe *anyone* thought you'd be doing a "pure" World Eaters list as well, Frogbear.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

I have a Khorne Warband List - playtested to a large degree

I also have a World Eater list - in development (initiative rules, indomitable, squad balances need to be playtested) - playtests are guaranteed.

I will eventually have a Chaos Squat list - just a twinkle in the eye at the moment

That is it. The fact of all the changes was due to a misunderstanding of the word 'approved'. I never had any intention of not having a 'World Eaters' marine list to play and test through myself and Morgan. Eventually it should be merged. I have no issue with that.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Ok

If we are taklking 'sub champs' then this is different.  

Come forward (as the NetEA) and advise advertise or place the position of the official sub-champs of the different lists and I will be happy to move along with what I am sectioned for.

At the moment, it seems like a capatalist environment where anything goes.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Agreed, if this happened, there would be no problem at all.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Only want to point out that my comment wasn't posted with bad feelings towards anyone. I'm just confused.
I'm still not sure if all are understanding what is just happening here (including me).

So will we have THE ONE AND ONLY World Eaters army list AND THE ONE AND ONLY Khorne Warband army list (and ONLY this two lists) or will we continue to have TWO World Eaters army lists (together with a Khorne Warband list???)?

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

It's more of a dictatorial commune. Everything works because people don't step on each other's toes.

The issue of multiple sub-champions for the same list hasn't come up before because of good management by the ACs. The absence of an AC led to this situation, which in Honda language is an issue of Concurrency Control leading to Deadlock.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Sorry mate but when you PM'd me this:



...it really looked like you'd decided to branch away from WE per se and focus 2.4 on the warband design thus adding back your bloodgors etc. When I called you on the phone I presumed that that 4.0/5.0 would essentially be new parts to 2.4. A completely new WE list is a different kettle of fish  

To be fair and to stop all this, can we just leave it with Steve54 to make sa decision on?

All the info and thoughts are on this thread, and honestly, only he can provide sub-champ positions if he fills they are warranted.

If I was to attain the sub champ for Khorne Warbands, and Dobbsy the World Eaters, Dobbsy and I could easily work together on keeping units the same and keeping different lists. We could both also provide support and guidance for any other up-coming list designers that wish to contribute 'Khorne' or 'World Eater' ideas to the NetEA

Are people happy with this if it were to happen?

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

As long as it only led to one list being called "world eaters" that'd be great.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

Frogbear, you really don't seem to be getting it... there's nothing "official" about sub-champ positions, it's a mostly empty title that simply means "I'm the person people complain to about a given sub-list"; there's little power, little prestige, and little thanks.  It just means the person in question is trying to lead the design of a given list, but only maintains that power as the community accepts that leadership.

By default, anyone who creates a new sub-list is the "sub-champion" of that list... who the heck else is going to want to develop it?

The whole problem here is that both yourself and Dobbsy are acting as "sub-champions" of a "World Eaters" list, and that's what's causing all the confusion.  If you focus on your "Khorne Warband" list, you're *automatically* the defacto "sub-champion" of said list, and Dobbsy can sub-champion the "World Eaters" army, there's no need for decrees from "on high".

If you decide you want to be sub-champion of *both* a "Khorne Warband" list anda "World Eaters" list that's in direct competition with a similarly named list, then we're back to having a problem.

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Ok I just spoke with Frogbear again on the phone (he's now in a meeting) and I'm not sure what he's written here looks different to what he actually means.

Basically, I will be focussed on WE "sub-chump" and he will be focussed entirely on the Khorne Warband "subby" as well by whatever means those titles are assumed/presented/stapled to foreheads etc. However he would like Steve54 to clarify that more "formally". I'm just happy to be able to work on the WEs as a single and separate list.

No witch hunts are necessary about FB's recent posts as I think there's been a few misunderstandings lost in electronic medium.

Dobbsy is correct.

The whole NetEA is an enigma to me. I do not understand it and I am not sure I ever will. Here is what I took the NetEA to be:

NetEA Board: Made up of all the 'Race Champs' (if required): Final decisions and ability to remove each other based on majority votes

Overall Race Champions: Guide, appoint and direct sub champs for particular areas of development

Sub Champs: Are appointed to be a medium for lists under their perview to control submissions, parity and collaboration

It is such a simple system that I thought that is the way it worked. By having open season on sub-champ positions, you are always going to get different lists - especially when you have people such as myself just wanting to get things moving.

Problem currently is with existing "sub champs" who hold onto multiple lists. This again should be managed via the 'authority' line where the Overall Race Champ places guidlines down, and if they are not followed, or even looked at, then the person is replaced.

Does this not sound like a fair and equitable system?

Otherwise, people will do whatever they want.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

Chainaxes at dawn?

_________________
Visit www.epic-battles.de the ultimate german epic site&forum!

frogbear: The NetEA project is more of a cooperative collective than a rigidly defined organisation. Only the main Champions and the 3 members of the NetERC are rigidly defined. Champions especially have great leeway in how they handle their sub-champions. Some rigidly define them (like Marine sub-champs are typically defined) and some prefer a looser hand. There are advantages to both styles... and Steve54 has a big enough job dealing with the update of the core Chaos lists right now, he hasn't even had time to pick a style.  

Other than that, things "work" because everybody swims in the same direction. If two people start swimming in opposite directions then the community will see about setting the two opposing parties on complementary paths.

This has happened before, with competing Squat lists (names were changed, and some lists merged), Salamanders and Dark Angels Marine lists too.

On all previous occasions, sooner or later a compromise was amicably reached without the need for the ERC to intervene and vote on the issue. Theoretically that could happen, but it's never needed to, as a simple renaming solves any potential issues really.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter