I'm still really stuck on making World Eaters berserkers do what they should in CC - not run if they get beaten - You're forced to do it by the withdrawal rules but it's so damned wrong in principle.

Can anyone propose a rule to avoid this? I tried to with my loss of transports idea but it got a cold reception from at least Zombo.

I truly think they should not be forced to run without making transports fearless - do I really have to do that to avoid this situation?

Any ideas?

Make them so good that they cannot lose an engagement?    

That is a tough one dude. Especially if we are attempting not to add in another special rule. It worked last time for E&C so now I will try it:

I summon BLACK LEGION !!

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Sometimes you just have to make some concessions to the playability of the game.

In the background, Khorne Berzerkers might indeed never back down / never retreat, but if you translated that into Epic you'd get something like:

'On combat resolution rolls, Khorne units take a number of hits equal to the ammount they lost the combat resolution roll by (these hits may be saved against), after which count the roll as a draw. The combat will continue until either Khorne Berzerkers win, or all the enemies in the target formation are dead.'


And that's just not playable, surely.

I think you can rationalise 'breaking' as 'deciding to attack somewhere else where they have a better chance of claiming more Skulls for Khorne'?

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Fair enough. Dobbsy sad... but happy to go along with said rules. Pfft! what good are they?  

On a good note I just spent the evening re-doing the new 1.1 list in word/excel. Other than missing some data for the slaughterer, some small details and some re-adjusting of formatting it's pretty much done.

Not long now

This is not a Khorne list discussion. This is a World Eater discussion. The cranial implants have increased the sense of agression within the World Eaters that when battle is joined, the proverbial 'turbo nutter' is an obvious truth.

Well, the Bezerkers aren't entirely stupid. Having the snot kicked out of them might just shake them close enough to sanity to actually make them consider a temporary withdrawal to formulate a new attack strategy.

But as far as formations being Broken is concerned, that doesn't mean they aren't craving more combat necessarily. But if the Bezerker formation loses coherency and devolves into a roving band of individual killers, they cease to be a functional battlefield unit.

Put simply, I don't think it is an issue if Bezerkers become broken in combat (or at any other time). Just think of it as the Chaos Lord beating heads enough to get them focussed back at the enemy.

Now, I really like the idea of great big warbands consisting of bezerkers in rhinos, terminators in Land raiders with attacked predators and defilers. It fits the feel of the Bezerkers well and would provide the formations with some versitility beyond just "Charge!"

Back to Bloodrage. I'm still keen on the original idea (hey, I would). Has anyone actually tested it? I would go with the following, after seeing some good suggestions in this thread:

The followers of the Blood God live to slay in his name, and there are few as bloodthirsty, favoured and homicidal as the World Eaters. When the scent of the enemy is strong nothing can stand in their path to slaughter, but their frenzy can also cause them to abandon all strategy. Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and spacecraft) suffers -1 to Activation rolls if there is at least one enemy unit within 30cm of any of the units in the formation. In addition, any formation (excluding Chaos Navy or spacecraft) that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must choose one of the following rather than the normal Hold action: the formation may make one 'charge' move and then fight an assault or shoot once or regroup.

As for the Bezerkers themselves, I was thinking that they might need a boost to 2xCC4+ or even 2xCC3+ in the Black Legion list, which would in turn impact this list. Thoughts?

Are berzerkers underpowered? If so 2x4+ is a reasonable next step.

I've only really seen them used in the Red Corsairs list where they can be in a thunderhawk...

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Personally I would not like 2xCC 4+. You want to know that when you finally get them in combat, you are not going to be dissapointed.

At present, I know that when they get into combat, 80-100% of dice will hit. Regardless of the number crunching, from experience 2 dice at 2+ is more often more satisfying that 4 dice at 4+.

At 2x3+ cc I am still cringing, yet if it were to be changed, then I would prefer this.

It is not the average of hits that I worry about, it is the deviation in range that can really mess up a World Eater attack. Let's face it, without the assault, they do not have much else (as in superior numbers etc).

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I don't think they need changing.

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Scott's used them a fair bit in his Black Legion too.

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That's pretty good Lord I. I like how they become more difficult to control the closer they are, though I think I'll re-word it to something like:


Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and Spacecraft)suffers a -1 to activation tests while at least one enemy unit is within 30cm. In addition, if that formation fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook), rather than the normal Hold action, they must perform an Engage action and attempt to assault that enemy. The formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves.

I cut out the shoot or regroup options Lord I, as we may find people standing and shooting etc rather than "losing control" and trying to get into assault.

I'm going to put this in unless anyone has any objections....?

Dobbsy

At one point you mention 'the berzerker formation' and yet it relates to all forces (minus air support). Do you only want it to relate to bezerkers or the rest of the army?

I have a concern with it being the entire army. Do we want an opponent to take advantage of this rule and force the cannon's of Khorne to have to charge rather than shoot? Now where once there was talk about the bloodrage giving the army a certain uncertainty, this rule now has the uncertainty and also gives the opponent some 'guile' to use against the force. I am not sure if that is a good idea.

My recommendations are as follows:

1. If you are going to keep the rule as written, make it berzerkers, dreadnoughts, bikes, and Khorne assault engines only.

or

2. Keep the Charge, or Shoot rule for the entire army.

or

3. [preferred] Charge, Shoot or Regroup rule as standard

I prefer the last as we are dealing at an Epic level here and the others seem to be so micro that they could just as well be rules in 40k. The last option gives the greatest range to be unhindered in the all important 2nd and 3rd round.

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Fearless troops have the option of standing in place without taking hackdowns.  How about something simple like just making non-retreat mandatory...

Blood Rage
[Engage on Hold rules]

Units with Blood Rage which lose an assault may not make Withdrawal moves per 1.12.8 Loser Withdraws.  Any non-Fearless units accompanying the Blood Rage units must withdraw as normal.  Units out of formation after withdrawal moves are resolved as described in 1.7.4.

That relies on existing, defined mechanics.  It would stop Berzerkers from retreating.  It's a mostly-negative that offsets the positive effects of Engage-on-Hold.  It would definitely stop the possible "I want to lose this assault so I can use my withdrawal moves to block the enemy" wrinkle.

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Neal

It currently reads as if the enemy formation is the one that has to engage if it fails.

Here's a slight rewording for clarity, and to cover the situation where the WE formation could choose to deliberately engage a formation out of range in order to avoid a fight, and clafifying what happens if there is no enemy in range:

Any formation in a World Eaters army (excluding Chaos Navy and Spacecraft) suffers a -1 to activation tests while at least one enemy unit is within 30cm. In addition, if a formation (excluding Chaos Navy and Spacecraft) fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook), rather than the normal Hold action, it must perform an Engage action against an enemy formation it can succesfully reach. Note that if there are no enemy formations in range to be engaged the formation may use its engagement move as a normal move.

The formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves.

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Exceptionally cool idea by Nealhunt.

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