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CSM list review
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:27 am 
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Renegades and the Black Legion.

The other legions are marginalised.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:02 am 
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(pixelgeek @ Mar. 05 2008,01:12)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 04 2008,02:31)
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Well said... the new Chaos Codex annoyed a lot of chaos legion players, because their lists were essentially removed, but as far as the Black Legion goes, it is very accurate.

How so? Its focused on Renegades is it not?

The main CSM present in the Codex are Red Corsairs and Black Legion.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:15 am 
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(BlackLegion @ Mar. 04 2008,18:02)
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The main CSM present in the Codex are Red Corsairs and Black Legion.

Ah. Thanks. I thought it was only Renegades.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:33 am 
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I recommend getting a copy.

It's really only been maligned by:

- Those unhappy with the reduction in number of options (Jervis has had a hand in the design of codexes for a while now and you can really feel the same approach to rules balance as in Epic).

- Those who lost their variant legion lists.


Overall, it's a very good codex for representing the most common form of Chaos Marine armies.




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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:05 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 05 2008,02:33)
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I recommend getting a copy.

Its on the list. Probably should grab one this weekend really.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 7:14 pm 
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I did a point-ratio calculation on the SG boards comparing CSM units to SM units that have close correspondence (Chosen to Termies, Retinues to Tacs, etc.).  The point ratio is only one way of looking at the list(s), but based on the numbers, it seems to correspond pretty closely with reported results from game play.  The results?

Raptors need to go to 40 points.
Chosen are on the border but could go to 70 points.

Alternately, either could go to "X points + Y per additional unit" format with the character value in the fixed price , e.g. 4-8 Raptors at 175 for 4 + 40 per unit, 4-6 Chosen at 300 for 4 + 65 per unit.

In other words, not very different from the more conservative suggestions based on pure game play.

Details are here.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:25 am 
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Alternately, either could go to "X points + Y per additional unit" format with the character value in the fixed price , e.g. 4-8 Raptors at 175 for 4 + 40 per unit, 4-6 Chosen at 300 for 4 + 65 per unit.


I'm firmly in favour of this option, for the usual reasons.

Cheers for the analysis Neal.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:50 am 
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I will adopt this costs for my Red Corsairs armylist if you don't mind :)

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Irondeath
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:09 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 05 2008,19:14)
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4-6 Chosen at 300 for 4 + 65 per unit.




I think that?s slightly OTT. As has been mentioned elsewhere, broken Chosen priority targets for opponents who never waste time mopping these formations up as auto-kills via BM are so much easier to get than working through 4+RA. SM Terminators with ATSKNF are at a huge advantage here as a simple "shot-at"-BM won?t do.

Small formation size and close proximity to the enemy (which cannot be avoided with Chosen) leave them broken all the time. 275 for 4 will do. I?ve never felt nor been told that they were problematic at 260, and going to 300 really isn?t needed IMO.

Alternatively, one could try to tackle the preferred-upgrade: Obliterator problem by making the base formation slightly overcosted but allowing for cheap additional Chosen, as in 300 for 4, +50 per additional Chosen.


Lastly, since SM a are commonly cited as a yardstick to measure BL against (well, hey were over at SG), let?s also keep in mind that the SM list is commonly perceived as overpriced in mulitple areas, especially with regards to Characters and AVs.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 2:30 pm 
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let?s also keep in mind that the SM list is commonly perceived as overpriced in mulitple areas, especially with regards to Characters and AVs.


Except the Terminator formation, which is regarded as too cheap at 325pts for 4 (375pts for 4 with a character).

IIRC they're scheduled to go up to 350pts for four, or 400pts for four plus a character.

Which is a bit different to 260pts for four plus a character, lack of ATSKNF and a pip of Strategy rating notwithstanding.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:53 pm 
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(Irondeath @ Mar. 06 2008,13:09)
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 05 2008,19:14)
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4-6 Chosen at 300 for 4 + 65 per unit.




I think that?s slightly OTT.

Those were posted for the sake of examples, not necessarily as firm suggestions.  It could just as easily be 275+65/unit or something else.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:19 pm 
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(Irondeath @ Mar. 06 2008,05:09)
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Lastly, since SM a are commonly cited as a yardstick to measure BL against (well, hey were over at SG), let?s also keep in mind that the SM list is commonly perceived as overpriced in mulitple areas, especially with regards to Characters and AVs.

Neal provided a broad overview of CSM pricing compared to SM pricing as a means to look at the relative costs of some units in the CSM army.

That is not the same thing as using it as a yardstick for general issues.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:47 pm 
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I?m perfectly okay with Neal?s calculations.

What bothers me are straight on comparisons ignoring the benefits of ATSKNF on high-armour, high-value units in formations of _4_, claiming a huge discrepancy in cost while presuming near-equality in effectivity.

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pixelgeek
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:55 pm 
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(Irondeath @ Mar. 06 2008,10:47)
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What bothers me are straight on comparisons ignoring the benefits of ATSKNF on high-armour, high-value units in formations of _4_, claiming a huge discrepancy in cost while presuming near-equality in effectivity.

I think Neal's comparisons work because it isn't really a comparison per se but a way to use the price structure of the Marine list to gauge the costs of the CSM armies.

Even then I think its a difficult thing to do since some units, like Assault Marines and Raptors, have different kits and have access to different types of transport options.

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Irondeath
 Post subject: CSM list review
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:48 pm 
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Legion4s inquiry about Chaos Titans reminded me of what I perceive as a weakish weapons loadout on the Ravager (Chaos Reaver) Titan.

Let?s have a look:



Chaos Ravager Titan
Cost: 650

Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
War Engine 20cm 4+ 3+ 4+

Weapon Range ? ?Firepower ? ?Notes
Doomburner 45cm MW2+ Titan Killer, Ignore Cover, Fixed Forward Arc
2 x Death Storm 45cm 4 x AP4+/AT4+ Forward Arc
Battlehead (15cm) Small Arms Extra Attacks(+2), Fixed Forward Arc
Tail 75cm AP4+/AT4+
or (base contact) Assault Weapon Extra Attacks(+1)

Notes: 4 Void Shields, Damage Capacity 6, Walker (May step over units and impassable or dangerous
terrain that is lower than the Titan’s knees and up to 2cm wide), Reinforced armour, Fearless.

Critical Hit Effect: The Ravager?s plasma reactor has been damaged. Roll a D6 for the Ravager in the
end phase of every turn: on a roll of 1 the reactor explodes destroying the Ravager, on a roll of 2-3 the
Ravager suffers one more point of damage, and on a roll of 4-6 the reactor is repaired and will cause no
further trouble. If the reactor explodes, any units within 5cms of the Ravager will be hit on a roll of 5+.


For the same cost as an Imperial Reaver, you get shorter range on 2 weapons (only 45cm Death Storms instead of 60cm Turbo Lasers). The Doomburner is something of a sawed-off Volcano Cannon with half the range and only TK(1) which has gained Ignore Cover in the exchange.

But: The Ravager has a Battle Head adding 2xFF attacks and a Tail with 75cm AP4+/AT4+ shooting and +1CC attack.

IMO this equals either the shorter range on the Death Storms or the measly stats of the Doomburner, but not both.

I?d suggest upping the Death Storms to 60cms (which would affect the Lord of Battles in the LatD list as well, which is fine and would need its cost increased by +25) or changing the Doomburner by increasing TK(1) to (TK3), which would also give the Ravager a distinct role in the army as mid-range anti-WE platform.




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