Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Defilers

 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
Ferals, Decimators - MW-Ignore cover barrages - possibly change to Ignore Cover-disrupt


Agreed, as currently they're heinously broken (Especially the Ferals).

Decimators and Death Wheels also need either moving into the Titans / Allies allowance, or making more expensive. I'd prefer to see the former.

Greater Daemons - too expensive/difficult to summon

Agreed.

Defilers - change to reflect 40k

Agreed.

Undivided mark - completely redundant - remove

Either remove it or give it a different benefit (Perhaps something to do with blast markers, as the Undivided mark allows good leadership in 40k).




My local Chaos opponent wins his games via the use of Garrisoned infantry, and 'daemon bombs'.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:41 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Not that this is a BL list thread, but the problems with the BL list are minor and for the most part there is a consensus opinion that has formed based on reports from dozens, if not hundreds, of games:

Ferals/Decimators a bit too powerful
Internal balance with Raptors/Bikes
maybe Obliterators a bit too cheap
maybe summoning a bit too expensive
maybe Ravager not quite good enough (a more recent point of contention)

Unsurprisingly, both batreps and tournament army lists reflect the generally-recognized strengths and weaknesses.  No other units or formations have been conspicuously common or absent.

If you want to make a case that other items are substantially out of balance, it's easy.  Design the army lists to take advantage of whatever problem you think exists and post the results.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:14 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Back to the topic at hand...

====

Point cost/power:

Defilers look nasty on paper, but in the way they must be taken in the BL list they simply can't be used to effect.  Regardless of the theory-hammer, actual playtesting shows that no matter where they go there is a major conflict with the role of the formation.  They're too slow or their range doesn't line up with the rest of the formation, or whatever.  Something always doesn't fit.

The optimum use, imho, is to put them with a garrison retinue, but even then, other options are better.  I like playing the BL as an area denial force.  You'd think that Defilers would work well in that capacity (some long range fire and lots of "don't get close" factor), but they don't.  I played lots of garrison Retinues with Havocs, garrison Retinues with Noise Marines, and garrison Retinues with Defilers and Defilers are undoubtedly the worst for the points.

I'm also big on looking at batreps and tournament results to find out what is overpowered.  If a unit/formation is taken in large amounts in nearly any army it's good evidence that it's too powerful.  As it is, I've seen no batreps or tournament lists where Defilers appeared beyond a token quantity.

The lists have essentially been set in current form for ~2 years (even though the official adoption wasn't until this past spring).  If they were overpowered, someone would have figured out how to abuse them by now and we'd have seen at least one list with massed Defilers but no one has.  In the absence of any evidence, I think we need to assume they are currently pretty close to balanced.


Stat changes:

I think that some minor stat tweaks are in order.  The current stats were built based on the 40K stats at the time, rather than the background material about Defilers.  It was then that we should have dropped the direct 40K parallel.  Now that 40K has lined up with the fictional universe, we really should bring the Epic Defiler in line as well.

Dropping the IDF and adding a minor tweak to speed should be sufficient and should cause little change to the point cost.  If necessary to balance, I'd say drop the FF ability.  For comparison purposes, let's say...

No IDF
Infiltrate
FF4+

Units that make internal good comparisons for the Defiler are the Chaos Dread (infantry support walker AV) and the Khorne Daemon Engines (a slower, FF-oriented version of the Khorne Engines).

v Dread:  marginally better durability (inv), a bit more than 2x ranged firepower and  2x FF (with a 4+FF mod), plus infiltrate.  By my reckoning, that would put it at somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.6-1.7x the cost of the dread - 80-85 points.

v Khorne Engines:  considerably less durable (4+Inv v 4+RA), a bit more ranged fire and about 3x FF (with 4+FF mod), much slower but with Infiltrate, slightly weaker CC (1+MW v 3 average).  That looks to be within ~10% of the Khorne engine's abilities, or again in the 80-85 point range.

I'd say with the assumed changes:

85 points in BL
4 for 350 in L&D

Alternately, also remove the +1EA from the flamer and make them:

75 points in BL
4/300 in L&D

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:17 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London
I do think 75 points is the number to aim for with these beasties, but that they should be in comparison to dred, both ability and use (no point making them redundant).

Actually what is the comparison between the two?

Dreads are cheaper and can use drop-pods.
Defilers are better in CC, better in FF, better in ranged attacks and tougher.

Is that how it is in 40k (question directed at 40k players)?

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8711
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
I don't have played Wh40k for a long time but fromthe stats the Defiler is tougher than the Dreadnought (due to Daemonic Possession).
In CC they are roughly the same (Defiler a bit worse)unless you arm the Defiler with extra CC-Weapons instead of the arm weapons.
The Defiler is much more shooty than the Dreadnought thanks to the Battlecannon.
With Fleet the Defiler is also faster but can't shoot if it uses this ability.

Personally if i had to shoot at either a Defiler or a Drednought i would concentrate my fire on the Defiler :D





_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:44 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA

(Tygre @ Dec. 18 2007,19:13)
QUOTE
I think it is important to remember the weapons carried by default on the defiler a battle cannon, a single reaper autocannon a single heavy flamer and 2 dreadnought close combat weapons. ?I constantly see mention of twin heavy flamers etc, but it is only armed with a single heavy flamer.

The ablilitys of the defiler in 40k is the same as a typical deamon possessed dreadnought if it could fleet and carry a battlecannon.

Actually, you need to check your Chaos codex. ?:D ?It's armed with a twin-linked autocannon (it always was!) and a twin-linked heavy flamer (this is a new change - it used to have twin flamers that fired together as a heavy flamer because there were no rules for twin-linked flamers in 3rd ed).

But the 40K rules aside, the model is very definately equipped with two autocannon and two heavy flamers!

Another intersting tweak in the new codex, Dreadnoughts can no longer be daemonically possessed.

.........................................................................................

Alternately, also remove the +1EA from the flamer and make them:

I think this is a very good idea, but I would keep their FF at 3+ and make their twin heavy flamer AP3+. That way they complement the heavy flamers of the siegemasters.

.........................................................................................

Actually what is the comparison between the two?

Dreads are cheaper and can use drop-pods.
Defilers are better in CC, better in FF, better in ranged attacks and tougher.

Is that how it is in 40k (question directed at 40k players)?

The comparison is rather difficult to make because sadly Dreadnoughts are a very poor choice, due to their Frenzy rules - they are unpredictable to an unacceptable degree, and the new codex has quite bizarrely not fixed this. Normally when certain units are simply not seen on the tabletop, it's pretty clear there's something wrong with them, yet Dreadnoughts have arguably become a worse selection because of their tendancy to shoot their own side with no real upside. I've a very nice Forgeworld dreadnought I've never put together, and I really need to find the inspiration to make it as a modelling project because there is no real game incentive.

Nevertheless, in comparison:

- The defiler carries ordinance (battlecannon) and with the exception of the new Chaos Vindicator, is the only unit in the chaos army able to deploy ordinance.

- The battlecannon aside, the defiler still carries more weaponry than the dreadnought. It is, however, slightly less efficient at firing it (BS3 rather than BS4), although in real terms this is negligible because most weapons fitted to the defiler don't use BS (battlecannon, heavy flamers) and those that do (autocannon, lascannon, havoc launcher) are twin-linked.

- The defiler is reliable, unlike the dreadnought

- The dreadnought is better in combat, marginally. It has WS4 and I4 versus WS3 and I3 of the defiler. This makes it slightly more vulnerable to most infantry in combat - although offensively it is pretty much identical.

- The defiler can sacrifice firepower (which CANNOT be used in conjunction with the battlecannon anyway - one of the most irritating faults of the 40K system and one I really hope will be fixed in 5th ed) for additional combat attacks, which really make it a combat monster, and push it ahead of the dreadnought.

- The defiler is a Heavy Support choice, while the Dreadnought is an Elite choice.






Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
I don't think the Defiler really deserves FF 3+, to be honest. The Russ has 2 Heavy Bolters, 1 Lascannon and a Battlecannon and is only FF 4+. Even with the twin heavy flamer and reaper autocannon (Which is by-default twin linked) I wouldn't put its firepower that much higher then a Russ', and it's the same BS as the IG are. This would also help push it towards being a real melee beast where you want to use that 30cm assault move to let it get into melee while your basic chaos marines use their rhinos (or just move) ot be in FF range.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:48 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
It's got two autocannon and a battlecannon, which I would say is pretty comparable to a Russ. Then it has the twin heavy flamers on top of that. Don't foget how nasty such weapons are in a firefight - the hellhound (FF3+) and the scorcha (FF4+), for example and defilers carry rather more firepower than either of these units! Typically, a units FF is equal to the AP value of its flamer. A Defiler is also very maneuverable in terms of bringing its weapons to bear.

I don't see any major issue with a FF value of 3+, and since that's what it has anyway, I'd just leave it at that - we're talking about removing a whole attack! Really, in 40K it's a pretty vicious firefight unit, arguably better equipped to do so than the leman russ.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:53 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:44 am
Posts: 12
QUOTE
I think it is important to remember the weapons carried by default on the defiler a battle cannon, a single reaper autocannon a single heavy flamer and 2 dreadnought close combat weapons.  I constantly see mention of twin heavy flamers etc, but it is only armed with a single heavy flamer.

The ablilitys of the defiler in 40k is the same as a typical deamon possessed dreadnought if it could fleet and carry a battlecannon.

Actually, you need to check your Chaos codex.    It's armed with a twin-linked autocannon (it always was!) and a twin-linked heavy flamer (this is a new change - it used to have twin flamers that fired together as a heavy flamer because there were no rules for twin-linked flamers in 3rd ed).


I apologise.  I did not read it clearly :blush: .  It is a double heavy flamer.  But it still is only a a single reaper autocannon.  As a Reaper Autocannon being a short barrelled, twin linked autocannon.

But back to the problem on hand.  The defiler suffers the same problems that the dreadnought has in the army lists.

As its firepower is very close to the leman russes.  I would prefer FF4+ rather than FF3+.  I think this would also encourage players to use them in CC rather than FF.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Defilers
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 8:00 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Based on having more feedback on the TSons, I'd really like to get a solid idea of the prevailing opinions on the Defilers so I can tweak the TSons version.  Is this pretty close?

15cm
4+/Inv
CC4+
FF4+
Battlecannon - no IDF
Flamer - ignore cover on FF, no +1EA, possibly AP3+
Reaper w/ standard stats
Claws - +1EA, MW
Notes - Invulnerable, Walker.


Possible alternates:
15cm/Infiltrate or 20cm speed
5+RA/Inv
Reduced Battlecannon range
Leave the Twin Lascannon
Fearless

I'd say the top stats are close to 75 points, considering the prevailing thought that Dreads are probably a bit weak (and the Handbook rules have FF3+ on the Dreads) - slightly tougher, about 2.5x ranged fire and about the same in assaults and movement.  That's SQRT(1.16*2.5)*45 (points for a slightly weak dreadnought) = 77 points.

I think adding Infiltrate or Fearless would definitely make a noticeable boost.  I think either would take them to ~85 points and I'm not sure about both.  Reducing the BC range would be a pretty modest change unless it went under 45cm, which I don't think could be justified.  5+RA instead of 4+ is not a big difference.  Reaper/Lascannon switch doesn't make much difference (loss of range but more flexibility with the Reaper).

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 71 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net