I like that idea FB (I really should take a closer look at the Khorne list one of these days... ).

One other issue that springs to mind is the Havoc upgrade. I just can't see myself using this upgrade at all for 50pts. Then again, I can see that it may be worth more than 25pts...
I believe TRC may have mentioned this earlier in the lists development (pg 32).

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You really don't want to include action test modifiers for each Chaos faction do you?

And ok no change to the Terminators. They remain a Core formation.

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At all: How do you see the other Daemon Engine formations? Are they valid? Would you rather play a God specific army or a mixed one?

EDIT: It seems i have to get this: http://www.blacklibrary.com/all-product ... eaver.html

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I see your point. There is only one rule however as none of the other Cult lists seem to have any 'god specific' rules. Probably best left to single focus lists however...

There is always the option of 2+/1+ initiative defilers for +25 points if you wanted to go down that path (in line with the BL list).

I would ask that any Khorne or Slaanesh Daemon engines retain a 2+/3+ initiative for now just to gain parity with the World Eaters/Emperor's Children lists.



The problem is the LatD has them all so hard to strip them out (Silver Towers being the one example that is quite questionable).

The question is this: what is the vision for your list?

At present it is a cross between BL and LatD. That is fine if that is what you want. It appears to work. If you want to strip it down, work out the history and dealings of the RC and go from there.

- Is there any reason why they have Thousand Sons Silver Towers?
- Is there any reason why House Devine (Slaanesh Daemon Engines) walks with the RC?

Khorne and Nurgle influences are fine IMO for such a list.

Work out what you want and go from there. You have my support and feedback with an ongoing project at least

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BL

I have been thinking more about your dilemna regarding the Terminators.

Currently if you fall in line with the Black Legion it will be 4 for 275 and +60 per extra to a max of 8. At 275 points, that is a very tempting proposition to get two or more formations.

Without creating hard limits, you could restrict purchases by increasing base unit sizes and therby the points. So instead of 4 for 275, have the formation be
- 5 terminators for 350 poiints and +55 points each extra one.

That will at least ensure that any terminator purchase is a little harder in the hip-pocket per formation cost.

This is also a good justification for the terminators appearing in greater numbers as a group (if we appear then we appear!) rather than in different tactical formations that Onyx has shown. In effect, if Onyx still wishes to play the Termies with no restrictions, it will mean that he has more effective formations, yet less activations.

This is how I modelled the World Eaters. If Terminators show up, they are a precise part of the total battle plan (due to their costing) that have to be used correctly rather than a substitution for a tactical squad.

Also, one last observations (for now) - move the Space Ship back into the Navy section. At present it does not effect the 'one third' selection which seems to be the case in just about every list (other than Marines - and we all know that is a lost cause to the idea of change). If you take a space ship, it should effect the ability to take a full complement of aircraft, and War Engine support.

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One quick note first - both lists have a maximum of 6 Terminators only.

I'd happily support something like this but only if the cost of the 5 Terminators is 335pts (with the extra Terminator available at 60pts).

That's the current cost of a Terminator retinue plus one extra for the Red Corsairs list (275+60).
It's also 10pts more than 5 Terminators would cost in the Black Legion list (5x 65pts = 325).

I remain unconvinced that the Terminators are really an issue in their present guise though and I'd prefer them to stay as they are as my first option.

I'll also bring up the Havoc upgrade and Deamon Prince MW FF attacks again as other issues to be looked at.

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Sounds reasonable, yet with only 6 termies, the extra 60 points is a W**K. You may as well just say 6 termies for 375-395 points. Go the 7 or 8 termies and you justify the extra 60 point buys



I looked at this. You are replacing four units to get +4 shots (going from 8 to 12 for the formation) and 4 units with 3+FF all for 50 points. At present I think that upgrade is actually 10-15 points under-costed. It is not for everyone but IMO it is a very good upgrade for it's cost. It would make a perfect blitz guard formation and for no more than 325 points.

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You seem to have forgotten the 5+ CC that goes with the Havocs.
It really is just the extra 4 shoots that you are paying for and I agree with TRC that I don't see it worth 50pts.

Whenever I've had 50pts left over during list building, there has always been something better to spend the 50pts on. It's not a worthwhile upgrade as is.

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I would readily accept a 5+ CC against a 3+ FF. In effect, from the base 4+ for either, I would say it is better by a factor of 1.5. You cannot underestimate the value of FF over CC.

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Regarding Tzeentch and Slaanesh Daemon Engines:
Silver Towers and House Devine Knights are the ONLY non-WE non-aircraft Daemon Engines of Tzeentch and Nurgle. I really hope that when FW finalyputs out the Imperial Armour book featuring this two Chaos Gods they will also invent something new like the Blood Slaughterer and Blight Drone for Khorne and Nurgle. But for now there is no better option apart from pulling something new out of the *BEEP*.

The idea behind thi slist is that it is a bunch of several Renegade Chapter and Traitor Legion warbands united under one Warlord. The name "Red Corsairs" is only a placeholder as in "Codex Astartes Space Marines" or "Black Legion" as you can paint up you models to whatever Chapter/Legion/Regenade Chapter, etc you like.
The Core forces are not so REALLY into the worshipping of the Chaos Gods...yet. The ymight be dedicated to eg Khorne and field an Icon of Khorne but it ha sno in-game effect...yet. But sometimes the real nutters offer their blood-drenched hands for whatever they want in return and that is where the Cult Marine and Daemon Engine elements come from (and thatis why you need Cult Mariens to have any God-specific Daemon Engines)..

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Regarding Chaos Terminators: I could fix the formations size to 6 units and increase the cost appropiately.

Also i have yet to see a playtest which shows that Havocs aren't worth their points.

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I'd MUCH prefer 5 Terminators for 335pts with the option of an extra stand for 60pts (if any change is needed).

395pts for a core formation is a lot in Chaos lists that already struggles with activations.

Fair enough on the Havocs (I haven't seen any play tests with them in the Red Corsair list or I might've already accepted that the upgrade is worth it).

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Do character upgrades have to be added to a unit that was part of the basic formation (rather than an upgrade)?

Assuming yes, does this make the havok and cult marine upgrades for Traitor Retinues mutually exclusive? as the character stand would have nowhere to go if you replaced all 8 stands in the basic formation by using these two upgrades.

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Yes Characters have to be added to non-upgrades. It says so in the full army list which is not in the playtest two-page pdf.
But i guess i could change that. Eg a Traitor Retinue with Khorne Berzerkers could be a Khorne Warband led by a Champion of Khorne which is also a Khorne Berzerker. The Khorne Berzerkers would be the elite of this Warband and the non-Berzerkers would be Khorne Marines which want to bekome Berzerkers one day.

Speaking of Warbands. It seems that the official name for a Chaos Lord with his guys(not only his bodyguard squad but his whole army = his formation in Epic) is called a "Warband" and not a "Retinue".
Further Traitors is generally name for Chaos Space Marines of the Traitor ( <- see?) Legions.
So i lean toward renaming the "Traitor Retinue" to "Renegate Warband".

@Havocs: What about 45pts or 40 pts for them instead of the current 50pts?

Thoughts?

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No. They are under-costed as is.

I daresay playtests will show that they will be taken at 50 points without a problem.

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