I could get into a detailed argument about how the flexibility is not remotely comparable in those examples, but that's getting away from the most important point - the seeming arbitrariness of the restriction.

One justification you've given for the restriction is based on supposedly overpowered "massed scouts and terminators." That has never been demonstrated. So far you've cited scout drops and scout/activation spam as the attendant problems, but there is no history of either. Neither makes sense in "theoryhammer."

The other justification is "forcing the player to make choices," by which I assume you mean tough and meaningful strategic choices which people enjoy. However, even though there are some differences in the mix of Chosen/Termie ratios, the lists are the same on a macro scale and will play more or less the same. That's not a meaningful choice. Without being meaningful, it cannot be tough.

I suppose you could go with the "what the list doesn't have gives flavor" argument, but the CSM list is already gutted of "special" units compared to other armies - arty, air assault, skimmers. Those aren't even all that special. They're pretty common tools. I would argue that lack of special units is exactly why war engines are so ubiquitous. Of the two BL special features - daemons and wicked war engines - war engines are the best at compensating for the the lack of other special abilities. So, an absence is no longer providing character but has reached the point of reducing character.

Are there other reasons to have it?

It does seems that Daemons are becoming rare, in my experience.

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Well you used to be able to do a very good chosen/deathwind/demon drop army. But thats not possible now with the removal of deathwinds. You could do a mass retinue drop supported by 3 lots of terminators to see how it goes, with the requisite masses of WE.

I agree, I rarely play them. I would much rather see cheaper and weaker daemons and then I'd play more of them.

I use daemons quite a lot, normally 8+ lesser. Not had a problem with them really.

In Black Legion lists perhaps, but not in Cultist lists I'd reckon.

Black Legion, and Chaos Marines in general, don't really *need* the assault capabilities of Daemons, as they've already got good, intrinsic assault capabilities; what they need are boots on the ground! Cultists tend to be the opposite, so Daemons are much more likely to show up there.

Both the World Eaters and more-so the Emperor's Children list have tried to promote Daemon use more.

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I'd note I always use Daemons, including a greater Daemon, when playing the Red Corsairs. But those Daemons are cheaper/worse than the BL ones.

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Steve: I'm still very concerned about this. Have you considered any other options?

i'm definitely promoting daemon use in my list. perhaps hopefully the experiments there will help inform any adjustments to encourage their use in the other lists.

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I'm not sure what you suggest I do? We have head a hell of lot of discussion on the Chaos, and particularily BL, lists with very entrenched viewpoints due to a variety of reasons not least the past stewardship of the list. The present list has been put together as a response to a variety of different issues and problems which have festered.

Over the last 11 months there have been no serious complaints from any party (a minor miracle for BL) be it on taccoms or on the EUK circuit where a similar structure is in place until now.

As far as I am concerned the only 2 issues that need addressing are a re-examination of the planes and a look at SM vehicle costs with their reduction in the SM lists.

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Loosen the restrictions on army composition.

By changing 0-1's to 0-2's?

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I posted several possibilities above. Combinations are possible as well, and they can be tailored to still keep a lid on the two potential balance issues that have been cited - scout drops and termie/scout spam.

• Retinue + Support, without a separate Elite choice
• 0-2 Elite, instead of 0-1
• Move Decimators to the WE allotment (2 formations for elite slots instead of 3)

Those are sort of the "minimalist" tweaks. There are more extreme options.

• Add another core formation that gives slots.
• Add another core formation that doesn't give slots.

So Imp Guard and Marines can have their toys and Chaos have to make do with restrictions?

There has to be a better way

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