So how are LatD able to summon a Greater Daemon easier than the Black Legion? Because of the Chaos Altar which has Augment Summoning (+2)?

If it is this then i propose a change to the Black Legion's Champion of Chaos's Augment Summoning ability from (2D3) to (2d3+2) and increase his cost.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Do either of you (Irisado and Hena) have any examples of consistent G.Daemons being taken in C.Marine lists?

Are either of you going to even contribute an idea that falls outside of 'keep it as it is'?

If not, then why continue on this thread. I want ideas, not your own justifications. What you state already exists. I am not going to do this back and forth.

Now can we please get this back on track:

How do we make G.Daemons worth taking in C.Marine lists?

Is the idea in the Emperor's Children the way to go?

Well Black Legion don't need to be more denendent on Daemons but it should be a useful choice to use Daemons.
The Champion of Chaos gets an Invulnerable Save and a First Strike EA too. Not worth 50pts? How about 25pts?
It still stands to change 2D3 to 2D3+2 for his Augment Summoning.

How about removing the Champion of Chaos and give Agument Summoning to the Chaos Marine Lord?

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Specifically by reducing points cost to 75.

This was included in one of the many "playtest" versions and had me wanting to include a GD. Those "sledgehammer" Terminator formations I mentioned are a common feature in my CSM forces and a Bloodthirster adds critical extra oomph to them. Terminators+Bloodthirster is the easiest way to get your money back though, the other GDs require more refined tactics.

With reduced cost, 8 summoning points balances nicely, encourages a modest amount of LD and by extension adding Pacts to more than one formation. IMO.

The question that needs to be answered first then is: "Why do we need to make G.Daemons 'worth taking' in C.Marine lists?"

Not everything in a list has to be an equally competitive choice; some things may just be "flavour" choices that players take just because they want something "cool". For example, despite seeing many Warhounds in Space Marine lists, very few, if anyone, is asking "How do we make Warhounds worth taking in Imperial Guard lists?" to compensate for their lack in Steel Legion play.

Chaos Marines don't *need* Greater Daemons to be competitive, they've got a lot of other toys to do the job with; Greater Daemon use might just be "icing on the cake" for them, not something that's required or even necessary.

I agree that a point change is far preferable a change to "stats changes".

I think Chroma's got a good point. Although in an ideal world all lists would have internal balance across the board, when you start adding in the same unit across army lists that is virtually impossible. IN and Titans simply aren't equally effective in SM and IG lists, even though they are the same unit and cost in both. That's basically the same situation we're dealing with on CSM and Cultists. I do not object to tweaking the system but we need to recognize that perfection is not a reasonable goal in this case.

==

As Hena notes, a change to the Augment Summoning options available (and Focus options) is one possible approach to encouraging daemon use within a list. Cheaper units for either Augment or Focus is the obvious way to do it.

Another way to do it might be to reduce randomness. 2d3+4 gives a slightly better chance than 4d3 of getting 8+ points (67% versus 62%), even though the average is the same. I don't know for sure, but my suspicion is that lots of LDs has diminishing returns. If you chop off the high end results by making a Champion +4 instead of +2d3, you probably won't lose much in terms of desirability for LD tactics.

Strangely enough, given that I don't play Chaos Space Marines in Epic at the moment, and I'm not the font of all knowledge, that's not a question I can answer, but in my view, it completely misses the point that I have been making.

The point which you continue to overlook is that you cannot just change Greater Daemons because you don't think they are taken enough in Chaos Space Marine lists because of the knock on effect on LatD lists, yet you seem not to want to address this issue.



When you put an idea for a rule change on a forum, you cannot expect everyone to agree with it just because you think it's a good idea. It may well be a good idea for Chaos Marines, but you have not considered the impact on LatD, and this is what I am in disagreement with you about, and why I don't think that any change to the current rules are necessary.

Also, it is my understanding that many Chaos Marine armies have a wider variety of options than LatD, which may be one reason why Greater Daemons are overlooked, although I'm happy to be corrected on this issue if you think this is not a significant variable.

_________________

I still do not see how a change in summoning points effects LatD

Why is 'summoning points' being argued as being part of the G.daemon's stats. They certainly are not. It is a variable that IMO can be changed between lists just like points values which exist already.

Irisado: I am not ignoring anything. I just do not understand your position where summoning points cannot be changed between lists. So what if summoning is cheaper in one army than another? They do not effect each other.

As for C.Marines having more choice than the LatD. Seriously dude. Look at the options you get in a LatD list. It is not comparable IMO. I am not saying anything against the LatD list, I am merely pointing out a fact that you keep bringing up the LatD list like it is going to be adversely effected. As you have stated that you don't play C.Marine lists, don't you think you may be a little biased and not have a balanced view? You appear not to have an understanding of what it costs C.Marines to attempt to place a G.Daemon into a force.

If Greater Daemons are not currently viable in the BL list, why not just make them cheaper than they are in LaTD? That offsets the higher risk of them not turning up.

Well that is easily changed with no issue is it not?

You still haven't addressed my question, Frogbear:

"Why do we need to make G.Daemons 'worth taking' in C.Marine lists?"

Because I would love to be able to take a Great Unclean One. but I just can't justify it.. the cost/risk is far too much. I know a lot of people that think the Greater Demon adds to the flavour of the list. Though I think the issue possibly is the cost of augmented summoning.

_________________

My Photobucket