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The new Blood Rage....
BlackLegion
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:30 am 
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I would replace the Stalker with the Desecrator.
Note that in Vraks 3 it is rumoured that the FW Brass Scorpion is infact a Elder/Greater Brass Scorpion. It is rumoured that its Scorpion Cannon is identical to a Vulcan Mega-bolter (so 3 x shots not 3 x)and it has DC3.

The rumoured Wh40k stats for the bLood Sloughterers where:
From what I remember:
130 points
I think similar to a dreadnought with armor.
3 Attacks, +D3 on the charge
I think 2 DCCWs and posession, but I'm not as sure on those.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:56 am 
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I personally do not like the Stalker as a concept....Yes it is a weakness for the army, and IMO does not need to be plugged. I believe this was discussed on other posts as not necessary.


I think the Stalker is fine; Jervis specifically ok'd it as "they (Heresy era Marines) must have had something (for organic AA)".



I don't think there's a need for three different space craft.




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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:06 am 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 08 Jul. 2009, 10:56 )

I think the Stalker is fine; Jervis specifically ok'd it as "they (Heresy era Marines) must have had something (for organic AA)".

Then I stand corrected

I do not like it, but if that is the umpire's decision, then I will swing my bat and walk

I don't like it however  :)

I would like to know who is manning it as well. What bloodluster worth his/her salt would be manning such a cowardly weapon when his/her martial prowess could be better displayed to Khorne in amongst the enemy rather than on the back line?

Jervis I am afraid has alot to answer for IMO regarding OK'ing this one for World Eaters.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:11 am 
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Jervis I am afraid has alot to answer for IMO regarding OK'ing this one for World Eaters.

Note he only specifically ok'd it for CSM in general, not the World Eaters.

I would like to know who is manning it as well. What bloodluster worth his/her salt would be manning such a cowardly weapon when his/her martial prowess could be better displayed to Khorne in amongst the enemy rather than on the back line?

Perhaps a slave... or the Berzerker that drew the short straw! :))


You might as well ask what Khorne Worshipper worth his salt would drive a Rhino, instead of hitting people in the face with a chainsaw-sword; at least the Stalker has a moderately big gun on it...




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:52 am 
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Expecially World Eater Rhinos i see manned by Servitors.
And as a Daemon Engine the Desecrator fits better to the World Eaters than the Stalker.

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alakazam
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:34 pm 
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This is obviously a problem with the perception that all Khorne worshippers are 'turbo nutters', which is obviously not true...
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:40 pm 
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If a unit wants to summon Daemons effectively, they need the following:

1. World Eaters Champion Adds a World Eaters Champion to a unit in the formation 50 points each
2. Daemonic Pact Allows the formation to summon Daemons from the Daemon Pool 25 points
3. Icon Bearer Adds an Icon Bearer to a unit in the formation 50 points

There is no chance for transports for such a unit in this case?

Essentially yes. Like I mentioned you need to design your retinues carefully. The idea is they won't be able to do everything you want them to. Summoning effectively is still possible. Keeping the daemons on the table may not be so simple. If you want transports you might have to ditch the daemonic focus and lose the daemons at the end of the rally phase. If you want daemonic focus you might have to ditch the transports. Due to the reasonable number of fearless troops in the list, I'm trying to tone it down slightly in other aspects. And after all - It's Chaos! Nothing is well ordered :;):

Sorry you may not like that answer but I'm truly trying to be fair to both sides on the table. The WE list could be well OTT if some sort of brakes aren't applied somewhere.
Besides, if the consensus don't like this design feature I'm happy to change it.

BTW, have you noticed the Bike retinue upgrades...?

LatD can take Daemonic assault engines yet Khorne cannot? I know that the breass scorpions etc are the assault engines, however we are missing the following:

Cauldron of Blood, Tower of skulls, Blood Reaper and Death Dealer.

All the above were counted as part of the daemon assault engines and I for one have gone to extreme trouble to get a hold of sufficient models for a Khorne force. I would hate for these to be taken out. They are a strong part of the Khorne fluff and IMO need to remain in a World Eater list.
I can see your point. The problem however is that if I flood the list with daemon engines it becomes less about the World Eaters - my main focus. I guess I could set it up like BL's red corsair list and you pick from a pool.... Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue?

Also, in regards to terminators. Is one upgrade counted as 1 or you can upgrade as many as you want for 1 upgrade?
It's on a 1 for 1 basis. you get a terminator for every beserker. I think I need to re-word it to "replace any number of beserkers with the same number of terminators". It's set up so you can half and half, a complete terminator formation, or a couple of termies and more beserkers. It's an Ad-hoc formation in essence.

I could probably change it to "replace up to 4 beserkers with the same number of terminators" and add a single 4 unit terminator formation back in. I just don't want people to be going nuts with terminators as there's precious few left of them in the fluff -especially WE ones. I can put in a 0-1 stipulation i guess.

In order to teleport in with the army is to upgrade with terminators (8 x 50 = 400 points + 275) which equals 675 points. That is some big points to spend on getting teleporting terminators. And that is without a chaplain!!  I would like to see a seperate Terminator unit of 4 which may be limited to 1-2 for the army. I believe that would fix this issue.
2 formations of SM terminators will run you 700 points without a chaplain.... I get your argument for a single formation however. I was aiming to give players the freedom of mixing up the retinue and being able to take terminators in the one list entry but if it's too unwieldy I can change it if the consensus prefers it that way. Optional to the above idea, they could also be changed to "add up to 2 terminator units to the formation" though. It's not set in stone, I was just aiming to make the list more streamlined.

Only 1 bloodslaughterer as an upgrade choice? Would have to play it to see, however seems quite limited.
Like I stated, I'm open to changing what I have down as it's not the final document - did you notice the XXXX points cost, btw...? -  especially since I don't know exactly what the thing does.... These adjustments are posted to gauge what to review/change when I start putting them down more permanently.

I personally do not like the Stalker as a concept. and IMO does not need to be plugged. I believe this was discussed on other posts as not necessary.
The Stalker is a minimal entry in the list. Only "foot" infantry retinues and the predator formation can take one each... and if worst comes to worst, people don't have to take it. For those who do like ground based AA it's available to them. They also have to consider that it will take up a slot in the retinue upgrades.... plus there's always the modelling aspect i like to see.  :agree:

I don't think there's a need for three different space craft .
Fair enough. Like I've said i added the Barge for a fluffy/fun element and to gauge people's thoughts. Would you prefer to see the Barge or the Battleship stay?

I would like to know who is manning it as well. What bloodluster worth his/her salt would be manning such a cowardly weapon when his/her martial prowess could be better displayed to Khorne in amongst the enemy rather than on the back line?
Well i always see it like the dreadnought pilot idea. I imagine an old, mostly crippled, half-dead, insane Beserker with a bad case of tourette syndrome who drools from the side of his mouth and who's forcibly strapped in to the driver's seat hoping to grind the enemy under the tracks of his vehicle because he's a bit miffed he can't hoist his axe into someone's head - much like the cabbies in Glasgow  :;):  No offense Glasgow cabbies!  :vD

The rumoured Wh40k stats for the bLood Sloughterers where:

130 points
I think similar to a dreadnought with armor.
3 Attacks, +D3 on the charge
I think 2 DCCWs and posession, but I'm not as sure on those
BL, how does this translate to the Epic arena? What does your wondrous 40k to Epic changing machine say about it?

Remember folks, please give me feedback on what is there. it all helps decipher a better list.

IT'S NOT SET IN STONE!!  :agree:
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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:44 pm 
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Quote: (alakazam @ 08 Jul. 2009, 12:34 )

This is obviously a problem with the perception that all Khorne worshippers are 'turbo nutters', which is obviously not true...

No, you miss the point

This is not a Khorne list discussion. This is a World Eater discussion. The cranial implants have increased the sense of agression within the World Eaters that when battle is joined, the proverbial 'turbo nutter' is an obvious truth.

Where a Khorne renegade may control his urges and think things through, the World Eater does not have that luxury due to technical enhancemnts. The Emperor wanted that stopped for a reason. The World Eaters are that reason.

Not sure whether other Khorne legions have also adopted the neural implants. There may be one or two. I have not researched that far yet...

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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:52 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 08 Jul. 2009, 12:40 )

Well i always see it like the dreadnought pilot idea. I imagine an old, mostly crippled, half-dead, insane Beserker with a bad case of tourette syndrome who drools from the side of his mouth and who's forcibly strapped in to the driver's seat hoping to grind the enemy under the tracks of his vehicle because he's a bit miffed he can't hoist his axe into someone's head


*ROFL*

You have won me over with this explination. Now I am going to add one to a future list and act out the disgruntled marine much to Morgan's chargrin I believe  :vD




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:58 pm 
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I can see your point. The problem however is that if I flood the list with daemon engines it becomes less about the World Eaters - my main focus. I guess I could set it up like BL's red corsair list and you pick from a pool.... Anyone else have any thoughts on this issue?


If there's any list to have a greater variety of Khorne Daemon Engines, it would be in the World Eaters army list.

Fair enough. Like I've said i added the Barge for a fluffy/fun element and to gauge people's thoughts. Would you prefer to see the Barge or the Battleship stay?

I have no particular preference, as long as you choose either Navy or Marine units and stick with them; there's justification for either choice, but no need for both.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:03 pm 
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This is not a Khorne list discussion. This is a World Eater discussion

True! However, was it you who mentioned that the WE's are now essentially a ragtag bunch of warbands? The way I see it this statement means they'd end up with a whole bunch of different wargear at their disposal. Not everything in the WE's list is a raving loony wielding a chainaxe.... there just aren't enough of them left to form a cohesive fighting army/force. They would subjugate their grannies to fight for them if they had any -so having other Khorne followers who would possibly worship them as gods isn't a stretch....

If there's any list to have a greater variety of Khorne Daemon Engines, it would be in the World Eaters army list.
Point taken. Consider them back in. I will probably use BL's Red corsair idea for it.
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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:34 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 08 Jul. 2009, 13:03 )

there just aren't enough of them left to form a cohesive fighting army/force.

Uhm...Yes there are. Remember, they like other legions at that time were LEGION. Chapters came after the Heresy. There were so many in fact that they were able to storm the imperial palace! (I will have to reread this one again). They were also the last to leave Terra therby holding back the resistance - no small feat.

Just because they are warbands does not lessen their number. They are just separated (blame Grandma Wendy for this fluff). It was a large battle that Kharn decided to lose it. (it does puzzle me however why Kharn did lose his tremper as the others were obviously not crazed enough to continue fighting - looks like I have alot of rereading to do).

Also, I believe they still continue their cranial augments on new innitiates - those that have survived (even just) a slaughter and proven themselves in battle).

No doubt joining a World Eater legion would be daunting at best. Imagine approaching them for 'membership'. Proving yourself would be dangerous indeed. Another way is to survive one of their raids and maybe kill one or two of them with inferior armour and weapons. Not looking good on either of these two choices, however in the chaos wastes, alot can happen and time is not as we know it. And your reward - a lobotomy.

*shakes head*




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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:44 pm 
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At the end of the day, this is all just persoanl conjecture. We do the best with the tid bits of information that GW gives us and try to peice together what we PRESUME would be the case.

I will attempt to finish reading the Slaves to Darkness this week and get onto the updated Chaos Books to piece more of this puzzle together in order to help the list if I can

Great work Dobbsy. Keep it up. It has got my interest going again for this list.

Cheers....




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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:28 pm 
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They are just separated

winner winner chicken dinner!

You got it in one. The list doesn't represent every warband together. It represents a slice of a larger pie - the design of your army lets you cut your piece of it and not every army will contain the same forces. The WE's would muster whatever forces they could scrape together across a vast galaxy. This means not just WE marines  :;):

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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:34 pm 
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I want my Chicken Dinner

Can I come round and collect it tomorrow night?    :cool:

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