Ok, so TRC and I tried out the 'Daemon Prince horde' against a marine drop army last night; and called it half way through turn #2 when it was obvious that the marines were losing heavily. Here is the full report.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

In my defence the dice weren't so much against me as actively picking sides (if Gavin had rolled this well at Britcon in one game I reckon he would have won ). More pertinent comments in the thread.

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Funny that you tried the DP list against a basically static (after drop) Marine list when we all talked about manoeuvre being the key to taking out the army you listed :-)

I could have spared you the time and energy and called it as soon as you mentioned it was a marine drop army :-)

Am I correct that you tested this with none of the suggested CSM changes? You mentioned te Obliterator AA so was this the only change you didn't use or did you avoid them all?

Also you mentioned daemons from time to time but there is no mention of them being retained or not. I assume that they were not?

It would be interesting to see how this works against other armies (especially someone like teh Eldar) but perhaps next time you can use the suggeste CSM changes and provide some feedback about those as well.

Its rather beside the point, IMO,  to be playing test games while not taking the time to test changes that will hopefully address the army list. You specifically mention the Obliterator AA being an issue but we know that it is and are working to rectify that and it would have been interesting to see what effect that change would have made in the game.

Especially since you are posting links to this in the CSM rules review topic.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I wasn't up to date with the proposed changes but the dp's did get downgraded to MW. What are the others? Could they perhaps be stickied?

Edit, or of course I could just check out the first post in this thread

Of the changes no real differences I reckon, other than the assaults going worse (is that possible?) for me and the extra points from the oblits saving maybe allowing ferals in.

The drop army was largely in response to time pressures but otherwise I concur about movement/screens (as detailed over in the batrep thread).

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"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Good points all, PG, to be borne in mind when / if I get to play against other races etc, but it just happened that TRC produced the Drop pod marines this time round.

As TRC says, we did use the reduced DP stats, and ultimately did not need inspiring as the results were all 2-3 up in favour of BL each time. I had the Oblits in the Chosen (as posted higher up) but they would have been replaced by other Chosen so there was little effect there. Daemons were removed in the end of turn phase, and the AA was not really tested at all given that the single THawk never entered the range of an active formation.

As to testing things, while I will try to bear the other points in mind, I was specifically trying out the DP horde idea to see if it was crazy or not - and in this game it seemed to work rather well as they did save quite a number of hits (unsurprisingly given the 3+ RA).

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Crazy under the old list is one thing but I think that LI would probably like to see if the list is crazy under the new changes.

TRC ought to know better than to bring a drop pod army to test something :-)

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

How do you find that works for you? Maybe I am set in the old way of doing things but I always like having the daemons retain from turn to turn.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

In my 20+ games with chaos I've only taken an Icon once on one retinue. By the end of the game it was a really stupid size and did nothing as the enemy just moved away from it all game. It also soaked up a lot of my daemon pool so the other formations couldn't use them to bolster theirs assaults.

If daemons always stayed once summoned I think they would have to cost more and then you may as well make them a fixed sized formation upgrade as I wouldn't want to pay much more for the variable amount of summoning.

On the subject of changes to the list can an official ruling on what to do with the daemon pool when it comes to determining points values should a game be drawn be agreed. Currently in the UK its treated as a formation with half points award if the pool is at 50% strength or full points if at 25% strength or less. Minor point I know but worth some consideration IMO.

I take one formation that is ramped up to do nothing other than summon a GD and some LDs and then assault WEs or Titans.

The other formations that summon tend to be things like Chosen or Bike formations and then I usually only give them a smattering of daemons to help in an assault.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I'm with Mephiston here - keeping the Daemons would be too powerfull, as would mixing them. At 25 points each, the Lessor daemons are already as good as Eldar aspects which cost a shade less than 40 point each - with the benefit / drawback that they disappear (so cannot be killed) until they re-appear (leaving that formation a bit weaker). IMO the randomness of summoning and the daemon's impermanent nature is not worth the 10 point difference in the relative costs. (IMHO they should cost more ~30 points minimum anyway)

I have never seen anyone use an Icon bearer or Chaos Champion, possibly because they may not be considered worth the points. That said, paying the extra 50 points seems about right for the combined cost of buying four Deamons and making them permanent. And equally 225 points for a permanent 3DC WE is not far off the mark either.

The main issue (as I understand it) is not so much the total costs, but rather the random nature of the current summoning rules and the upgrade slots they use. Having paid for the means, there is a significant chance that you will not get the required number of lesser or greater Daemons. Good competition players are the ones that are calculating and manipulating the odds in their favour, and they would seem to prefer using the limited upgrade slots for other more concrete advantages than the probability of getting big Daemons, not least because the additional points equate to another unit. It may not be as "fun", but then they are 'in it to win'.

(my two penneth as they say)

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I'm not suggesting a change in the rules, I'm just asking people how they use them :-)

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I have basically given up on LD in my LatD armies, they´ll reliably fail their activation to Engage and I´d rather have multiple coven then few with a meat shield. The cultists on their own are very poor shots, but when you add Fire Support and IG Tanks, things change, and you can still dish out some damage on "Hold" with a Leman Russ, while a Bloodletter mainly looks stupid. GDs, like the GUO and especially the LoC can be very effective shooters.
I´d never field anything slaaneshi, so I can´t comment on the KoS.

As a side note, the wording in BL1.1.1 and the corresponding paragraph in LatD should be changed to "lesser daemons" instead of "daemons" or some bright kid will add D3 GDs on the roll of a 6! Also, this would make taking only GDs viable, currently that´s a recipe for disaster.

It is a different story with BL, I aim for 10-12 LDs and sprinkle Pacts across my formations. I would have only ever fielded a GD in scenario play @8 summoning points, will have to reinvestigate.

With targets cluttered, I often find myself summoning Daemonic Beasts, though this may be a problem of my khorne-styled armies, there are commonly just to few enemy in range to provide the Bloodletters with sufficient victims.

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I focus on formation with the task of getting a GD on the table and then point it at something big.

Even if it isn't successful in killing its taret it usually keeps my opponent "entertained" for long enough that I can concentrate on my other goals.

Nothing takes gargants down like a GD of Khorne :-)

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Hmm, been doing some idle maths on the possibilities with a Greater Daemon and Daemon Prince together in the same formation. Given the Greater Daemon summoning reduction to '7', if I have got the maths right, the odds of getting a '7+' with 4D3 is 81%, or 4/5 which would now seem quite attractive.

So, I propose a Chosen formation (6), with Icon bearer, Chaos Champion, Daemon Prince and Pact:- 565 the lot, which seems remarkably cheap (even if it is the BTS). Given half a chance this will generate a permanent GD and become a minimum of a 9 strong formation. With even moderate luck this should take be able to out any enemy WE and be very difficult to destroy to boot (and you would obviously take measures to keep the Icon bearer in the middle of the formation).

Adding a Greater Daemon to 7-8 Lesser Daemons and the pool is 240-260 points, which also seems cheap considering the potency of the possibilities.

Ok, so how would you go about defeating this monstrosity which is geared up both to kill the enemy BTS (which is usually camped out near the Blitz) - as it would seem to be eminently capable of achieving both objectives while preventing the enemy from killing it??

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"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Hope I go first and jump it pre greater demon? Best use for that is probably turn 2 teleport to cut down the concentrated threat. Still its effectively 9 units for breaking purposes so if you are desperate enough you can break it with enough of your activations. Or pray you are guard with deathstrikes or shadowswords intact. All marines can do is go first and terminate it.

Incidentlly moe GD's popping out might call for a review of their balance - who wouldn't want the bloodthirster in most situations currently?

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If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x