I have to agree with the theme of "If it aint broke, don't fix it".

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I see both sides; themed lists are awesome and the L&TD list is so overstuffed and bloated it largely lacks for a cohesive theme... But at the same time it is somewhat externally balanced even if large internal chunks of the list never see play.

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Why I like themes is that I want to see an army that could potentially appear in the 40k background. I've had trouble imagining how all the disparate elements of the LatD list could ever be found on the same battlefield. A cultist uprising wouldn't have that many overt signs of chaos corruption, while a daemon world force would have changed their imperial vehicles beyond recognition.

If daemon engines can be cobbled together in a few days with vehicle wrecks and some sorcerer binding daemons, it all makes more sense. Is an LatD army a collection of chaos-tainted human refuse that whirls around and starts to gather?

how about if the traitor elements where moved to a restricted allies section?

the main LatD list would be the rabble/cult stuff, with access to daemon engines (albiet the simplified "gunwagon philosophy" style ones) and limited traitor guard support (i do like the rabble AA option btw, and would take it over hydras for theme regardless, though i encourage that as one of the restrictions)
things like small "armoured fist" formations, tank and artillery detachments, and maybe even thunderbolts if needed (i'd still rather see more chaosey/rabbley options there, if nothing else, the PDF fighters like in the mossinians would work)
that way rug can keep using his models in the one army, instead of maybe having to use a second list once in a while, but it helps trim the fat from the list too

then there could be a daemon engines list, with many more options (i particularly support a asphodel force for obvious reasons)
and the traitor guard lists can work well enough for people wanting a more traitor guard heavy list

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Personally, I'd love a demon engine focused list (I recently came into posession of an AS load of the old metal demon engine models of most flavors, so would love toget to use them all, maybe even with more differentiation for the different ones).

Also, a specific demon world list intrigues me, maybe with greater demons/demon princes as the core, always on the field choice, and other demons appearing and disappearing from their formations. I guess demon engines might fit in here as well, being demons trapped in machines and all.

I think just removing the traitor guard elements from the existing list will remove much of it's punch.

I really like Fredmans idea of making LV type analouges to the gaurd units - that would fit very very well thematically, and screw less people over with painted models. It'd also then give a nice progression to the cult AV of the list.
Something like a chaos Hounds pack would make a good skirmish screen.


roight:

from the latd army champ thread:

current Latd covers the following elements:

Traitor Guard, Cultist guard, cultist AV, demons, demon engines

(traitor guard still follow military organization, cultist guard still have some equipment, but are a little less organized)

Possible lists:

1 Chaos Titan legions = noted here just for completeness.

2 cultist + demon engine = Super heavy monstrosities and runts (the demon engine list)

3 cultist guard = light mechanized cultists, chaos av, Demon SHT and demons (Fredmans baby?)

4 Vraks = siege waves plus old armour - it's one of forgeworld's more famous creations.

5 Bloody hand = classic traitor guard, with slight assault leanings.

6 Demonworld Rabble = stable(ish) demons, mounted demons, bizarre terrain, giant spawn, Soulgrinders ect

</lurk>



+1

If the split were to be Cultists = Daemon stuff and Traitor Guard then how about 2 lists with a 1/3 'allies' limit containing a limited selection of units from the other?
This means that you can represent guard going Traitor and throwing their lot in with an established cult, or a small cult force fighting alongside Traitor pdf but would focus the list on one or the option.

Personally, that's the way I'd handle it too - get all of the other lists up and running (what, 2 years?) run them all in parallel for a while and see if the original still attracts the most use.

To allay some people’s fears, I’m not proposing to rip up the LatD list at the moment. I am however looking at what are workable lists with increased restrictions. The current list has IMO several must have traitor IG & IN units and I would like to see us being able to move the list along so that it can function without the automatic need to add these or that we have alternatives available to a player so that the force does not need to take IG or IN units.

Last weekend I got a game in with Aging Hippy taking three mechanised covens, two foot covens (one including an Altar) and five formations of Defilers, plus 16 lesser daemons. This was using the EUK list allowing me to take defiler formations at 250pts.
I faced off against a Space Marine force with two Thunderhawks, two Assault (+ Chaplains in each), two Devastator, two Tactical, Whirlwinds, Landspeeders & Thunderbolts.

Game finished in turn 3 with Aging Hippy claiming BTS & Defend the Flag to my nothing. A single Chaos Altar was not sufficient to hold off the sweeping attacks from the ‘Hawks & ‘Bolts and my dice were up to their usual standard. I think that my defilers made more invulnerable than armour saves. Suffice to say that I lacked the range and movement to worry the Marines back line and was lucky to rally five formations at the end of turn two which stopped the game from being a complete rout.

Final note, of the 25 Defilers that started the game I finished with only 2 left alive.

More testing to come....

new special rule: "Slaves to the darkness"

During a hold action, a player may sacrifice a unit to remove an additional two BMs.

Game LatD vs Ulani - LatD won on turn 3 with BTS and TnH whilst UlNi failed to push forward and cover their losses.

list altered compared to previous?

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