Regardless of how people view me on these lists, I am actually quite an easy guy to work with on a project. I wsas given boundaries and I worked within them.

As for a drive for change, I am under the understanding that we needed to place something together and get it ready for playtests and a freeze. Invariably, that is what I have done and then placed up for feedback.

- There is still a concern with having an all Fearless formation if I make the Sonic Retinue all Noise Marines. I am open to having this discussed - it does go against the design project however

- I have no real issue on adjusting or removing Havocs at this time (opinion may change - who knows). Perhaps these could be a new home for Decadents - albeit under another name or role?

As you can see, there are options. There is also the design restrictions that I have kept to. It was also a point to include Noise Marines in two seperate units - but this was just a personal choice and can be removed. It is not that I do not have a drive to change things (quite the opposite actually), it is more of a case of 'give and take' to make sure the project moves forward rather than halts due to people being stubborn and set in their ways.

Steve54 gives the word and I will set about any required changes. I hope this helps to clarrify things.

I haven't had a chance to look through this thread in detail - work, catching yet another cold from the twins etc, but don't wait on me for making changes that have been thrashed out in discussions.

My intent for demanding Frogbear start the list with the same structure as the DG+WE so that we didn't have wildly divergent lists each with different approaches to the fearless question at an early stage in development. If all fearless is viable for EC 'retinues' then go with that.

My mistake:
I was reading in one Chaos book (shock horror a 40K Book! - 2002 version, 4th ed, of the Codex Chaos) about the Emperor's Children (under the Book of Slaanesh)

I took the fact that they only upgraded Predators and Dreads with Sonic Weaponry as a clue to a restriction on Land Raiders It makes me think that there has to be some reason why Land Raiders were not included in the EC upgrade. I cannot for the life of me find any fluff to justify it.

I will play this test game vs Blish this Thursday as I planned. At the least it will give an indication on the performance of different units and formations. I will then re-look at list structures.

When looking at Formations themselves, I have these concerns:
- A formation of 6 Fearless Noise Marine units doing both 30cm and FF disrupt is quite nasty and could be seen as overpowered. Other than the fan, does any opponent really want to see this?
- Dreadclaw-ing the above unit is a no brainer and I would rather limit their drop potential as that is the 'signature' of the World Eaters
- Removing Havoks : Will the armoured support (core?), Defilers (Support) and Slaanesh Knights (Support) fill their role effectively?

I will open up another thread to question the role of the various Chaos Cults to help all the champs with a clear vision on what each list should look like.

It's been tested. It appears from searching the boards that the discussions and batreps are gone.

The Noise Marine formation wasn't overpowered. The army played oddly with normal all-Fearless issues plus expensive, small formations as the core of the army (with 6-unit Fearless biker formations as well). The result was a small, easily broken army that ran around the board claiming territory while broken - rather gamey in that respect. The main playtesters requested cheaper non-Fearless line units to bulk up the force and play more traditionally, resulting in the non-Fearless Legionnaire units to mix in with the elite formations.

That's a very rough summary. I suggest contacting Lord_I for more detail.

Yes. That sounds like most of the lists from the past. All fearless, gamey, and personally - boring.

Adding in Legionaries is just like when I added in Bloodgors for the World Eaters. I took a lot of heat for that with claims of Blitz Guards, cheaper units etc. It just does not seem that I can really catch a break no matter what I do - while others gain support for these supposedly new ideas. This could also be said of the 'always charge' methodology that is now being talked about for Blood Angels. I have tried as much as I can, but all I see people doing is trying to move this list to a BL list with Noise Marines as a Core unit. Frankly I am just not interested in doing this. Legionaries are an afterthought rather than a piece of the project IMO.

The only all Fearless retinues left as I see it are the Death Guard Termies, and anything that the Thousand Sons provide. I go with the methodology that the BL cult Marines are the 'end of the line'. They are the extent of what the cult extends to and making something beyond that is not necessary.

- Having a Fearless formation (more than 4) is a thing of the past for Chaos. It has had years to prove itself and has been found to be boring and unfair (broken or otherwise)
- Gone are the days of Fearless transports (Land Raiders etc)
- Even Death Guard have moved away from all Fearless (other than termies which I cannot see existing with Fearless in the Long term). This move was after Hena refused to budge, and then one day decided it was a good idea.

It is a long campaign but I am confident that it will happen. With 3 of the four cult lists going with mixed units and the TS looking like it may adopt something similar, the days are numbered for these discussions. No matter how you argue it, or claim playtests, the facts remain; boring games and designs with no view on what it means for the opponent to come up against the list are things of the past. Finally the lists are maturing to hold there own and not be merely shelved for the odd 'playtest' once a year.

Frogbear: I find it extremely frustrating to try to provide you feedback because I have no idea what you are going to focus on to the exclusion of other comments and context.

Nothing in what I posted supports your conclusion that Noise Marine formations are gamey, boring or otherwise not viable. You took a handful of comments which cited issues based on specific situations and made an undeservedly broad conclusion. Moreover, your generalization is at odds with the conclusions of the people who actually playtested the prior versions of the list.

Just a note to say I've used the formation about 20 times in playing games with the Red Corsairs list and they were fine.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Fair point, just that the deviations are noticable.


Yes, but the previous incarnation was quite heavily tested and I know that worked. You are reinventing the wheel here. Maybe it's better ...

When it comes to restricting the type of armies and models people can collect you have to ask yourself - is it necessary? Maybe an army of nothing but Leman Russ is broken, or maybe its useless, likewise with all-Terminator or all-Scout armies. The end result tends to be that really these extreme armies don't work too well and a balanced force does better.

I don't recall anything except possibly the daemon knights that anyone had any issue being free to choose from. Adding in restrictions doesn't seem to make EC armies any more "fluffy" -- there's no reason (as with the Death Guard, which I did split the list in conception) to force players to take infantry formations or indeed any other particular formation.


Is it broken? Is anyone actually going to build an army like that? Is there a need to restrict this possibility if they did want to do this for whatever reason?

I doubt anyone would build an army like that, if they did want to I doubt it would do very well, so why bother restricting it?


Then make the whole army Intractable or Indomitable or whatever the rule was called ... but that doesn't mean mixed formations are required. Either noise marines are Fearless or they're not. But I, personally, want full Noise Marine formations. Other army builds may be catered for, maybe if people really want mixed formations then a proviso should be there...


Well, here's your feedback - and I appreciate your good nature in accepting it. I think mixed formations of basic troops are a bad idea, it's confusing, it doesn't solve the problems, it waters down the theme of the list and it complicates the army list. I don't want non-noise marine formations and I don't want non-noise marine havocs or anything like that or I'd just stick with BL. Mixed formations might work for the World Eaters (just because whole formations armed with axes just doesn't sit right with me) but for the Death Guard it's absurd.

I would listen to Neal who has more experience with all-Fearless armies than anyone else.

Apologies to Neal if I came across a little *blah*. I am looking at everything, and I probably did take some things out of meaning.

Rather than harp on about these things, I will propose a few options and see what a majority wants.

In the meantime, I have taken on the feedback regarding structure and will look to provide the following (let me know what you think):

Core
- Sonic Retinue (whatever form they take)
- Bikes
- Armoured Section
- Terminators

Support / Elite (1 for 1 or 1 for 2???)
- Possessed
- Defiler Engines
- Daemon Knights

Removed: Havocs (should these be removed? - only INF based support unit)

Effectively I have removed a unit and also removed a layer of list build. People happy with this or should it be open more?. This build relies less on massed units and gives more options for bikes and armour in the list as standard.

Ideas: I would really like to bring Daemonettes into the picture as anything you read on the EC have Daemonettes in the picture running around doing whatever they want (most recent - Sons of Dorn novel). I guess that is a future project...?

I will work on it this weekend so any further advise/feedback would be helpful

My preferred option would be to make the whole list Indomitable (as I first did with the World Eaters). This invariably would get little to no support due to the BL stats. So yes, it is a simple answer with little to no support.

Leave it with me and I will work on something this weekend. Let's see if I can provide something that makes most of the people happy (including yourself)

Thanks again for the reply

I think the best way to deal with Daemonettes is either include a Demonic Focus into the formations, which would make them more likely to be taken, but you might have to point to include it even if you give it a slight price break, or possibly give them a Sonic Altar upgrade that works a bit like the Altar in the LatD list. Giving them the support to run with more demons, summon GD easier would mean they would get taken more often.

_________________

My Photobucket

In some ways I agree with you Frogbear. I would love the main formation of the Deathguard to be all the same.. I don't like the split as it makes it a halfway house formation, that doesn't do anything amazingly well.

_________________

My Photobucket

While I have had some time I have been working on some ideas.

One thing that comes to mind is this:

1. An open list with no restrictions will see all formations priced to their full potential. This will lead to more expensive units and mean less activations and possibly a poorer game play as the player (rather than opponent) struggles to keep active units on a table and remain competative

2. A 1 tier list (with requirements to purchase one of these to be able to buy one of those) will allow for cheaper formations (by a little). This takes into account that they cannot be bought wholesale and therefore an otherwise overlooked expenditure is required to purchase them. This wilol allow further activations (even if just by one) or even allow other options such as upgrades which would otherwise be overlooked.

My preferred list is a 1 tier list as I believe it will provide a better gaming experience for the player and opponent.

I will produce both (with cost differences) and see what people think. I already have enough ideas to do up and present another version for feedback. Now I just need to find the time...

I had the playtest vs Speed Freaks tonight and got thoroughly beaten

A good part of it was due to tactics and not knowing the opposing army, but there was also the element of either bad dice or lack of 'bite' - I am not sure which. I will report on it at another time.

When I asked several of the guys tonight what they saw as the Sonic Retinue, it was always 6 Noise Marine Units. When advising them that they are all Fearless and have 30cm disrupt, there was murmurings of concern. My opponent had major issue, not so much with a formation of 6 of these, but the fact that they are all Fearless. It appears that the major issue was them being impervious to the extra hits from being broken and losing assaults. The consensus remained however that 6 Noise marine units were required for the Sonic retinue.

The simple solution to all of this is to adopt a skill like Indomitable across the board for all the lists and the Cult additions in the BL. It would halt all of these discussions and the lists would move forward at a more rapid rate. You want to include it? That's fine. You don't want to? That is fine as well. That is where we should all be at.

Until that time, I will continue to try and get the list to a stage that appeals to most people. Fearless just appears to be a 'chain' that is really holding development back. Lists are literally having to be changed to cater for it which in itself is a clear example that a change is required.

Currently I am looking at Emperor's Children as separate formations and how they acted before the change and what they would have devolved/evolved to now (much like Neal is doing with the Thousand Sons).

All I can really say at this point is "Watch this Space".