Isn't that more aimed at races variant lists? Every race has a few special rules but problems arise when people try to add multiple special rules for each Marine chapter or Guard type

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Well i only wanted to know why initially the Greater Daemons don't use the avatar summoning rule and instead the developers came up with something entirely new.

Teleport would have done the same (ok not quite, the Greater Daemon has to be a formation of its own to use it). As well as whole formations of Lesser Daemons with Teleport.

The Wraithgate rule could have been also be used for a Warp Rift (as somekind of "Chaos" Wraithgate only for Daemons) or Icon Bearers (as some kind of slower and Infantry type "Chaos" Stormserpent only for Daemons) to summon Daemons.

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I guess you kind of answered your own question there - the Greater Daemon is part of the unit it's summoned to, so Teleport would be kind of odd (the Avatar is it's own unit as you know) and the Wraithgate/ Warp Rift mechanic would have to be tied to the formation being summoned (and available to every formation capable of doing so), which isn't really any different from Summoning. The Summoning thing fits the fluff really well in my mind, but it would be even cooler (though somewhat harder to balance mechanically) if the Chaos Champion was ripped apart and turned into the Greater Daemon (as I think someone suggested already). However, does it then stick around (if it doesn't you gain the GD for a turn then lose a unit thereafter), is that option as default with standard summoning as an upgrade, what about lesser daemons, and so on. Still, it'd be damned cool  

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[quote="mattthemuppet,Feb. 24 2010, 21:16 "][/quote]


Only because the developers decided so. I was asking about the reason why.

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Hmm could be me  

There could be different approaches:

- Remove the Character (i would propose the Chaos Lord/Chaos Warlord) and place the Daemon (i would choose this if AV Greater Daemons would be introduced. He would be part of the formation.)
- Remove the Unit (with the Chaos Lord/Chaos Warlord) and place the Daemon (i would choose this if Greater Daemons would be renamed to Daemon Lords in addition to introducing AV Greater Daemons. He would be a formation of it's own.)
- Just place the Daemon and assume that a champion in the squad of the Character (again i would propose the Chaos Lord/Chaos Warlord) is being possessed/sacrificed for the Daemon with no effect of the Characters unit itself.

And i would say that the Daemon wouldn't dissapear until destroyed.

Lesser Daemons would be a formation of their own of 6 units or so which could all have Teleport and/or could move onto the board via a Warp Rift/Icon Bearer. At the end of the turn the survivors would vanish back into the warp to possibly reappear in the next turn. Killed Lesser Daemons are lost though.

If public demants i could include this in the Red Corsairs armylist for playtesting. I suppose this won't happen but i ask nevertheless  

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I'm pretty sure some very early drafts of the BL list did use a sacrifice mechanic. Can't remember the details but the current system won out.

You bought "Sacrifices" @ 25 points and got D6 summoning points out of them at the start of an action before the test was taken, and could expend more than one.

No actual units in the formation were removed, the Sacrifices were just a non-physical formation upgrade.

Edit: And gods forbid any aping of 40k mechanics for the sake of aping them, if there is no E:A gameplay reason to tweak things than they should be left as they are.

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BL. I would create another variant (not a change to the Red Corsairs) with such a rule for testing.

I would even attempt to challenge TRC's idea of the Summoning Pillar (replaces the Blitz Objective).

I was going to work on something, however I have been held up with all the World Eaters development at the moment.

If you wanted assistance, just send me a PM and we can put ideas together....  

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My Daemon World Horde army has a "Warp Rift" which can act as a portal to get non-disappearing Daemon formations onto the battlefield.

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And what army would fit this? Word Bearers? Apart form Black Legion the Word Bearers are the only Legion which makes extensive use of Summoned Daemons. But i already have a Word Bearers army in the work based on the Dark-Apostle/-Diciple/-Creed novels.

The current summoning rules used by the Black Legion and LatD army lists seem to be actually STRONGER from a fluff perspective than my proposal. They can bind the summoned Daemons to the formation = they take direct order from their masters and don`t rampage on the battlefield of their own (they aren't a separate formation fromthe summoning formation). Even without sacrificing powerful indivuduals they can summon Greater Daemons (or Daemon Lords if you will).

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Just make it up.

Here we go: The Dastardly Daemon Summoning Warband of Agrression (DDSWA) List.

Not everything needs to be in a 40K book. It is testing a theory that is important, not the presentation.

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If it is only a theory to be tested then just test it with the current Black Legion or Lost and the Damned army list. No need to extra develope a new army.

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I would have thought that with the price changes and balancing required for possession summoning and 'on table Daemonic Focus' would mean it would take less work with a new list rather than an established one.

Oh well, just another pipe-dream I guess.

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i've played a few games with the BL list using the different summoning values (7SP/8SP) and even my opponent is of the opinion that the cost for summoning should be 7 rather than 8. The unpredictability of summoning,the need for a Chaos Mark (bringing the factions rule into play), the associated costs (a Chaos Champion and often an Icon Bearer), and the upgrade slots that get used all combine to balance out the increased likielihood of needing 7SP to summon one. The alternate is to add an SP bonus for large formations and keep the 8SP, something like +1SP for formations more than ten models or so. This would make it far less likely for small teleporting units of Terminators to appear on the opponents baseline with a Greater Daemon .