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World Eaters List - Be Scared!

 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:28 pm 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 31 Jul. 2009, 20:13 )

I believe the Destroyers were supposed to remove the AA. That was discussed to today. AA is supposed to be provided by the Hellblades, limiting the WE detail a little (sort of self enforcing the Feral restriction). The Devastation Cruiser also does this.

With regards the Blood Lord and Prince, the Blood Lord should be a character. Adding +1 normal CC attack, and Supreme Commander to the Skull Lord, essentially. The Demon Prince is a Replace. Again, this is another sign of premature exposition.

Yes Mum   :sigh:

I cannot believe I missed this as I have read through that list something like fifty times now.

I will get it uptaded by cob today

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:32 pm 
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Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 31 Jul. 2009, 20:38 )

Converting one from one of Otterman's petite crabes was very easy:

This reminds me.....

What was the reasoning behind the reinforced armour on the Brass Scorpion?

Just from looking at the model (and I must say that conversion is SWEET!), it looks alot more fragile than most tanks that do not have RA, and more in line with a defiler which also does not have it...

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:36 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 31 Jul. 2009, 21:23 )

Damn. But my girlfriend distracted me with tender kisses while i was posting so i guess it was worth it  :laugh:

Black Legion,

If you come up for air anytime soon,  :p   could I get your opinion on the list? You have had alot to do with Chaos lists in the past so I would value hearing back from people such as yourself.

Thanks in advance

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:43 am 
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Nice one!

The names for the champion etc are cool.

A few things I noticed.

Rhinos (and Landraiders and predators for that matter) with the extra assault abilities needs to be paid for. 10 points isn't enough for 4+ CC and assault weapons on a rhino.

The plasma pistols seem nice and fluffy but they should have a cost attached. Did you add extra costing to each zerker unit? also you might consider removing the bolt pistols if you have plasmas as zerkers don't normally carry both if they want their chain axes  plus they already be shooting with the plasmas so it's a redundant weapon stat :;):

Are you going to rename the chaos Dreads to World Eater dreads in the army list section?
As someone mentioned in the WE1.1 threads Bikes should be FF5+ as they only have combi bolters.

Are you keen to have 2 reaper shots on the terminators? I assume your costing for them went up due to this? Also have you costed them not having teleport as a basic stat? They seem expensive if you take this ability away. Does it matchthe fluff that they wouldn't have teleport?

I'd check out BL's cannon of khorne stats. They aren't so long ranged but they pack a bigger punch.

You might want to recost the chosen. 2+ CC and 30cm move for 225 seems pretty cheap for a 4 unit formation including a character with 2+ MW and extra attack.

The daemon prince could use a points upgrade for the extra small arms FF5+ ability. Like wise the Bloodlord needs recosting for the gift of khorne FF5+ and extra attack.

Apart from a few other typos overall it looks cool. Are you happy to go with the reduced number of formations that this list will most likely get? In the WE1.1 list I tried to make the list more player friendly cost-wise (removing things like the extra costs for transports/predators and plasma pistols etc) so activation count wouldnt suffer too much. It really does make a difference.

Just some things to consider at least.  :agree:





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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:51 am 
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Note: This has not reached version 1.0 yet so is not the final playtest release. It is a 'sneak-peak' if you will at the development and to gain some feedback or playtests to help us to make this an optimum list.


Rhinos (and Landraiders and predators for that matter) with the extra assault abilities needs to be paid for. 10 points isn't enough for 4+ CC and assault weapons on a rhino.


Taken from Lord Inquisitor's original list and have not been reviewed as yet

The plasma pistols seem nice and fluffy but they should have a cost attached. Did you add extra costing to each zerker unit? also you might consider removing the bolt pistols if you have plasmas as zerkers don't normally carry both if they want their chain axes  plus they already be shooting with the plasmas so it's a redundant weapon stat

Once again, Lord Inquisitor's inclusion. I would expect however that 1 or 2 in 5 berserkers carries a plasma pistol and not the whole unit. Hence the difference & inclusion of bolt pistols.

Are you going to rename the chaos Dreads to World Eater dreads in the army list section?
As someone mentioned in the WE1.1 threads Bikes should be FF5+ as they only have combi bolters.
Noted. Thanks for that

Are you keen to have 2 reaper shots on the terminators? I assume your costing for them went up due to this? Also have you costed them not having teleport as a basic stat? They seem expensive if you take this ability away. Does it matchthe fluff that they wouldn't have teleport?
Have to look at the Terminator autocannons.

Being the only one I know that has playtested all 3 lists so far, I can safely say that I think we have the correct costing for the Terminators in this list. They do have teleport, as an upgrade. CC2+ for the potential to Teleport or come in on Dreadclaws (when they are official as a model), is too good so far to be any cheaper.

Also, we are not limiting the unit as others have in Chaos lists. Many have stated how these limitations hide the real inbalances in other lists. We are welcoming people to make the best list they can with ours. Personally if people find they can take an force (in our list) with Terminators as a 'cheesy' unit and win a game, I would like to see it.

I'd check out BL's cannon of khorne stats. They aren't so long ranged but they pack a bigger punch.
Yes, but they are not true to the 'fluff' I believe ours is.

You might want to recost the chosen. 2+ CC and 30cm move for 225 seems pretty cheap for a 4 unit formation including a character with 2+ MW and extra attack.

The daemon prince could use a points upgrade for the extra small arms FF5+ ability. Like wise the Bloodlord needs recosting for the gift of khorne FF5+ and extra attack.
We do not think so, not without playtests anyway

Are you happy to go with the reduced number of formations that this list will most likely get?
We are for now as we find that Fearless is an awesome skill in playtests. In effect, we are more about playtesting theory and then discussing it rather than just theory-hammering to the 'nth-degree'. We find that this gives a list more credibility. Our playtests have been a little plagued by 'bad rolls' which have meant that the World Eaters (losing assaults - who would believe?) have not shown the true potential of these maniacs. Fearless units are just plain hard to kill, so there should be less of them in these early stages of testing.

Just some things to consider at least.
Thanks for that  :agree:




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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:35 am 
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Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 31 Jul. 2009, 20:13 )

I believe the Destroyers were supposed to remove the AA.

With regards the Blood Lord and Prince, the Blood Lord should be a character. Adding +1 normal CC attack, and Supreme Commander to the Skull Lord, essentially.

Hi Mum

I have updated this and replaced it in the link   :smile:

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:00 am 
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Note: This has not reached version 1.0 yet so is not the final playtest release. It is a 'sneak-peak' if you will at the development and to gain some feedback or playtests to help us to make this an optimum list

:vD  funny how your idea is the same as mine... good work.  :agree:

Taken from Lord Inquisitor's original list and have not been reviewed as yet
Ah gotcha. Just for some info for you to use either way, when I first started the WE1.0 there was discussion that the extras should cost something more than the basic marine rhino. I decided that plain rhinos were easier and cheaper to sort out. As I mentioned my list is designed to help players with costs so these changes were easy to implement. Hope you work it out anyway

Once again, Lord Inquisitor's inclusion. I would expect however that 1 or 2 in 5 berserkers carries a plasma pistol and not the whole unit. Hence the difference & inclusion of bolt pistols.
Yeah no worries, I just figured the extra weapon stat was redundant as you could do the same effect with the plasmas all in one weapon stat. i.e

Plasma Pistols 15cm AP6+/AT6+
and 15cm (small arms) etc

Many have stated how these limitations hide the real inbalances in other lists.
yeah. Not sure I agree with it especially if there's a reason for the limit, like fluff or having them available elsewhere in a list in a different format. But to each their own :;): Not saying you're design isn't good here either btw to be clear.

Can I ask though, did you not like the structure of the terminators in my list? You could essentially take as many terminators as you wanted as they could be included in any zerker retinue. The 0-1 solely terminator formation was put in on your request for a teleporting formation when they otherwise were only available as retinue upgrades....

Yes, but they are not true to the 'fluff' I believe ours is
Oh? Which fluff were your stats from? I'm curious to have a read.

We do not think so, not without playtests anyway
Even though the Daemon Prince has stats much better than the normal BL list DP?

We find that this gives a list more credibility
Fair enough too.

Fearless units are just plain hard to kill, so there should be less of them in these early stages of testing
Having lost so many assaults with your zerkers recently, how has this panned out?

I'm curious, with your list design you've implemented a larger number of Daemon Engines etc. Are you concerned that it's less about the World Eaters and more just a Khorne based army. I thought this was what you were against in the WE1.1 discussions.

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:57 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 01 Aug. 2009, 11:00 )

I'm curious, with your list design you've implemented a larger number of Daemon Engines etc. Are you concerned that it's less about the World Eaters and more just a Khorne based army. I thought this was what you were against in the WE1.1 discussions.

It was merely to take a list that was potentially broken to test whether 3 LoB and a Banelord was too much.

Dobbsy, I'm curious what World Eater forces have you made with your list and what playtests have you performed to compare to this list. We will try ALL formations to find what is balanced and what is not in ours.

I will let Morgan reply to the other things.

* re-edited due to posting in haste




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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:01 pm 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 01 Aug. 2009, 11:00 )

Yes, but they are not true to the 'fluff' I believe ours is

Oh? Which fluff were your stats from? I'm curious to have a read.

Just start reading as many of the older rules as you can. It in in there including the reference sheets. I thought it would be required reading before making such a list.

I once offered all of these to you if I remember correctly.


* re-edited due to posting in haste




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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 1:47 pm 
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I guess the reenvisioning of the Khorne Daemon Engines as mutliple DC War Engines is truer to the original design concept as todays armoured vehicles.
Remember that for example even Baneblades and Leviathans in the time of Sm2nd/TitanLegions are destroyed after one single unsaved hit.

No i looked at Renegades and saw the entery to the Death Dealer. Its modelis rougly the size of a Leman Russ battletank but it can carry 5(!) stands of infantry. Thats 25 individual troopers in Wh40k a transport capacity which only super-heavy tanks like the Stormlord can reach.

So the actual models of the old Khorne DaemonEngines are just fine for AV Khornate Daemon Assault Egnines. But if you want to represent them proper by taking in account their old rules and fluff you have to go the Wh40k Apocalypse way and make them multiple DC War Engines.

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:14 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 01 Aug. 2009, 13:47 )

I guess the reenvisioning of the Khorne Daemon Engines as mutliple DC War Engines is truer to the original design concept as todays armoured vehicles.
Remember that for example even Baneblades and Leviathans in the time of Sm2nd/TitanLegions are destroyed after one single unsaved hit.

No i looked at Renegades and saw the entery to the Death Dealer. Its modelis rougly the size of a Leman Russ battletank but it can carry 5(!) stands of infantry. Thats 25 individual troopers in Wh40k a transport capacity which only super-heavy tanks like the Stormlord can reach.

So the actual models of the old Khorne DaemonEngines are just fine for AV Khornate Daemon Assault Egnines. But if you want to represent them proper by taking in account their old rules and fluff you have to go the Wh40k Apocalypse way and make them multiple DC War Engines.

Yeah, it's finding the balance of too many war engines or go with how big the minis are.

Yeah the Death Dealer was our last one to develop and we did not want to make it a War Engine so Morgan came up with the idea of Daemonic Pact (transport in a way :) ). Lord Inquisitor and other lists had them as AV so we thought based on the old minis, we would follow suit and add in our own flare.  

I will be testing out some Daemon engines tomorrow.

The Cannons of Khorne and Doom Blaster are also supposed to be war engine size as well.

So it is all about finding a balance between the older fluff and the rules as we have them. Our design is for a troop based list where we can, and then add the rest. I am testing all elements to try and find that balance while retaining as much 'fluff' as I can - in doing so, too many war engines is not where I personally would like to go. I just wanted something more than 'generic' assault engines.

Any feedback on points and army selection Black Legion?

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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:36 pm 
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Well i suck at points cost :D
You introduced a lot of new units. This list looks more like based on a time before Skalatrax. But i guess this would be all Epic sized armies :D
The one Support per Core formation prevents WE and AV horde which a World Eaters army shound't be  :agree:

After re-reading the fluff and rules of Cannons of Khorne i agree thatthey should have a long range but i would give it Slow-firing as per fluff it takes some time to recharge but with MW4+.

Oh and still no Slaughterfiend  :whistle:




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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:41 pm 
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[quote="BlackLegion,01 Aug. 2009, 14:36 "][/quote]
After re-reading the fluff and rules of Cannons of Khorne i agree that they should have a long range but i would give it Slow-firing as per fluff it takes some time to recharge but with MW4+.

Interesting proposal. we will add it to the list of 'to try in the future'


Oh and still no Slaughterfiend  :whistle:
This is a newer unit so I will have to get to my 40K books to see it... on the to do list but if I am not mistaken, could be added in with the Destroyer as a potential upgrade to a unit?    :))




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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 3:30 am 
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Dobbsy, I'm curious what World Eater forces have you made with your list and what playtests have you performed to compare to this list

Apart from some vassal self-testing (Vassal is a great tool)with the Terminators incorporated in the Berzerker retinues and a quick play with the Juggernauts, I haven't yet finished painting my army, as you probably know, so no table top play as yet. I'm trying for a more infantry World Eater list though as opposed to a heavy on the Daemon Engines list - but that's no surprise. I've been considering dropping the non-fluff Juggernaut formation as it doesn't quite fit the fluff being that they are generally only given to champions and not racing around in massive packs - the old Renegades book has a lot of details but it doesn't quite fit the current ethos IMO - it's a bit of a dinosaur from a past "play for kids" design that GW used. I haven't quite decided on them though. More testing is needed.





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 Post subject: World Eaters List - Be Scared!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:55 am 
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Well I had a game with these guys V0.8 (with some proposed changes) vs Eldar. That is our 3rd playtest and I will report on these tonight.

The main things that were tested in the list were the Daemonic Assault Engines (Cauldron of Blood & Death Dealer), and the Doom Blasters. The rest of the army were Berserkers and Terminators.

More on this when I get it written up.

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