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The new Blood Rage....
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:02 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ 07 Jul. 2009, 07:35 )

How many dice does it take before the shovel is brought out?

It takes GW's War of the Ring game, where a round of combat requiring 100+ dice per player is not unheard of. :))

20 dice is huge for Epic, but it's a drop in the ocean for Warhammer 40,000.

World Eaters are warbands now - not a legion. They are not wholy united as they once were, and they suffer from their cranial augmentations. Other legions of khorne Chaos Marimnes would not suffer this problem to the same extent. The World Eaters however are stuck with their uncertainty and bloodlust.


That's another reason why I don't think the Supreme Commander shouldn't be free / mandatory in this list ; the World Eaters have become fractured and fragmented, and not every warband is going to be led by a tactical genius on the level of a Chapter Master.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:43 pm 
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Quote: (zombocom @ 07 Jul. 2009, 01:21 )

Why roll more dice than we need to? This is Epic, not 40k where a dice-shovel is a required piece of kit.

OI!  Shut yer stinkin umie gob!  Proppa Orks knowed that more dice is betta!

[Why don't we have an Ork icon?]

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:57 pm 
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Just want to preface my reply here with the note that most of the list was transplanted directly from Lord I's really basic WE list 0.2. I have only tweaked things so far so there's heaps of room to adjust yet.

- To make it more Khornate, why not introduce the two new Daemon engines (the Blood Slaughterer and the Brass Scorpion)?

Yep already preparing the next draft to include the scorpion at least. Are there stats for the Slaughterer? It's easy to include either way.

- You could replace the Swiftdeath fighters with Hellblade fighters, as they actually have a model.
This could easily be done. I'd prefer WYSIWYG anyway.

- 'World Eaters Chosen' should be renamed 'World Eaters Terminators'. Chosen are something else entirely these days AFAIK.
Sounds like a fair proposal. I do like the name though. What are the Chosen nowadays then? It's been years since i picked up a chaos 40K codex

- By eyeing those stats, Destroyers are worth more than 75pts. More like 100/125 IMHO. Are you going to adopt the modernised base stats for the Destroyer? I'd suggest so as a faster Defiler hull that prefers CC would seem to be appropriate for Khorne!
I can adopt anything the consensus prefers. The 75 pts was just a starting point. 100 can be the next increment if people prefer.

- I'm not a fan of D3 attacks being put onto anything smaller than a War Engine (Destroyer, Dreadnought), I suggest a straight '2' as it's easier to balance and isn't so 'bitty'.
No worries. I think the d3 was a carry-over from 0.2.

- The Khorne Daemon Prince looks a bit too good (this list has improved both his CC stat and his number of attacks, for the loss of the ranged attack). Possibly nudge up 25pts or drop 1 attack?
Again a carry over I'm pretty sure. Can't remember if I adjusted it at all....

- You may want to add the Harbinger bomber, from the playtest list.
Easily done.

-  I suggest fixing the size of the infantry support formations (8 units sounds nice and fluffy) as it's less min/maxable that way.
Are you talking about the Legionaires? They were intended to provide a small picket/scout/rank and file-filling role as part of the mish-mash of the warband theory. I see it that not every Khorne trooper is a dyed-in-the-wool nutter like a WE. I'm not sure a scout formation should really be that large. So I think I'll probably reduce them to 4.

- Most armies pay 100pts for access to a Supreme Commander. Orks only have a free SC to compensate for their poor initiative rating. Even if he's mandatory, I think you should have to pay at least 50pts for him.
The free deal was another carry over. I am looking at revising the structure of the list too so leaders etc could be purchased instead of ingrained.

- I would suggest removing the 0-2 limit on the Terminator formation ; without Obliterators the formations shouldn't be such Swiss Army Knives, and consequently should require support in order to win games... if you want to keep the limit for fluff reasons, either institute a limit that scales to the size of game being played, or move them into being a Support Formation.
Fair enough. I guess SMs don't have terminator limit so I can see that it's not too much of a problem.

- Nitpick: Inititative and Strategy Rating should be at the top of the army list page, not the start of the document as a Special Rule.
Yep, I have this adjusted in the next draft.

- The Feral Titan has an extra attacks typo on its Hellmouth weapon
No probs. Having never used a Feral I'll admit the carry over was a bit of an over-sight typo.  :whistle:

That's another reason why I don't think the Supreme Commander shouldn't be free / mandatory in this list ; the World Eaters have become fractured and fragmented, and not every warband is going to be led by a tactical genius on the level of a Chapter Master.
Well I feel a SC sort of should be almost mandatory as it's usually the presence of the SC that binds the fractured nature of the WE's together into a warband. I guess it's possible that they could run around leaderless though. I'll have a think about it.

Which Chaos list is the up to date version for stats and the like? I'd like the list to have pretty much the same stats across the board as the BL/Chaos list.

At the moment I'm looking at possibly re-structuring the list to be more "ad-hoc". I may or may not give each formation a more mixed aspect. Things like the ability of mixing unit types. e.g you might be able to add the odd Terminators unit to a retinue etc. - you'd obviously have to take LRs to transport them to really make the mix of units apparent and I think it could look pretty cool on table to have a mix of armour types. Sort of make the formations more "bitty" to represent the wildly banded together nature of the World Eaters nowadays. I could look at making the WE list a cross between Chaos Marines and Orks in design. I haven't decided on this for sure as I'm not sure how people will take the mixed armour saves etc. I'm going to see how the Ork list handles it first.

Thanks for the feedback Ben and everyone else who's contributing  :agree:
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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:31 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 07 Jul. 2009, 23:57 )

... the ability of mixing unit types. e.g you might be able to add the odd Terminators unit to a retinue etc.

This is a very interesting proposal. I like it, as long as there is a limit (maybe 1 -2 per unit)

If it is done, I would ask that the terminator unit replaces the marine unit to keep the fluffy number 8 as the standard. I personally believe that foot sloggers should be 8 to a unit and then any extras (daemons, vehicles etc.) can be added.

I do believe we are almost there. I personally would like to see an updated list with all the changes that you mentioned with the bloodlust rule as it stands as it appears there is strong support to keep it or even with the addition that Black Legion advised.

I am a fan favourite for Land Raiders over rhinos as well, so please please please keep this as an option for squads as well. I have 62 stands of World Eaters just itching to hit the table (yes I know, I just need 2 mors stands... then I have the magical 8x8) - massive!

Let us know how far away the list is from being ready.

Thanks for getting back into this Dobbsy.




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BlackLegion
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:36 am 
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Quote: (Hena @ 07 Jul. 2009, 13:47 )

Quote: (BlackLegion @ 07 Jul. 2009, 12:19 )

Wllif you don't like forced moves then how about this:
When failing an activation the formations gains a Blastmarker and takes a Hold action. But replace the Move and Shoot parts with Engage. So with a Hold action a World Eaters formation can only choose between Engage or Regroup.

If this is not khrony enough then replace Regroupfor Shoot (Khorne is also about bog guns, see Cannon of Khorne, Tower of Skulls, Blood Reaper, etc). So with a Hold action a World Eaters formation gains a Blastmarker and can only Engage or Shoot.

So they would then just be better at holding. As you can engage a target and move even if you can't reach it. Unless you meant to remove the option of regrouping? Especially as the formation is Berzerkers which can't shoot anyway.

Well there are plenty of World Eater formations which can shoot.

@Dobbys: Chosen are Veteran CSMs. So basically that what the Forlorn Hope is in the Black Legion armylist. I have Chosen as CSMs with Scout in the Red Corsairs army list.

And how about replacing the Destroyer (made up unit) with the Slougtherfiend (official unit)?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:49 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 07 Jul. 2009, 23:57 )

- To make it more Khornate, why not introduce the two new Daemon engines (the Blood Slaughterer and the Brass Scorpion)?

Yep already preparing the next draft to include the scorpion at least. Are there stats for the Slaughterer? It's easy to include either way.

Confirmed stats are floating around on Warseer, check the latest Games Day rumours thread.

- 'World Eaters Chosen' should be renamed 'World Eaters Terminators'. Chosen are something else entirely these days AFAIK.
Sounds like a fair proposal. I do like the name though. What are the Chosen nowadays then? It's been years since i picked up a chaos 40K codex
To explain what they are now, I summon... BLACK LEGION!

(I don't have a Chaos Codex so can't be properly accurate for you)

- The Khorne Daemon Prince looks a bit too good (this list has improved both his CC stat and his number of attacks, for the loss of the ranged attack). Possibly nudge up 25pts or drop 1 attack?
Again a carry over I'm pretty sure. Can't remember if I adjusted it at all....
The original World Eaters list had him with TK(d3) on each CC of his three attacks. So whilst now he's 'just' too good, before he could pretty reliably kill a Reaver Titan in a single round of Close Combat.

-  I suggest fixing the size of the infantry support formations (8 units sounds nice and fluffy) as it's less min/maxable that way.
Are you talking about the Legionaires? They were intended to provide a small picket/scout/rank and file-filling role as part of the mish-mash of the warband theory. I see it that not every Khorne trooper is a dyed-in-the-wool nutter like a WE. I'm not sure a scout formation should really be that large. So I think I'll probably reduce them to 4.
Just as long as they're fixed in size...

- Most armies pay 100pts for access to a Supreme Commander. Orks only have a free SC to compensate for their poor initiative rating. Even if he's mandatory, I think you should have to pay at least 50pts for him.
The free deal was another carry over. I am looking at revising the structure of the list too so leaders etc could be purchased instead of ingrained.
I do think it's cool to have a minor leader leading each retinue as his own personal warband, I just disagree that a Supreme Commander would turn up to every single battle, even if one might be in overall command of entire force on the planet.

Space Marine armies are smaller than typical Chaos Marine armies, yet somehow Chaos Marine Supreme Commanders are more common...


Which Chaos list is the up to date version for stats and the like? I'd like the list to have pretty much the same stats across the board as the BL/Chaos list.
If you go with the stats pinned in the thread at the top of this sub-forum you shouldn't go far wrong...

At the moment I'm looking at possibly re-structuring the list to be more "ad-hoc". I may or may not give each formation a more mixed aspect.

I like that idea.

Thanks for the feedback Ben and everyone else who's contributing  :agree:

See, I'm a nice chap really. :))

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:55 am 
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To explain what they are now, I summon... BLACK LEGION!


*BAMPF!* Here i am and i point you to my posting above yours!

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 12:57 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ 08 Jul. 2009, 00:55 )

To explain what they are now, I summon... BLACK LEGION!


*BAMPF!* Here i am and i point you to my posting above yours!

Lengthy post is lengthy.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:02 am 
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Hehe  :D

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:33 am 
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Ok lads, here's the basic blood rage rule as asked for - I think.... Please point out any errors I've made - I'm rushing this post in between work and tea break  :agree: . Also should I include they have to engage at maximum speed? Not sure if everyone was onboard with only having to move 1cm on an engage.... Also do we want them to have a +1 to engage activations?

Any beserker formation in a World Eaters army that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must perform an Engage action, rather than the usual Hold action. The formation still receives a Blast Marker for failing its action test as normal, applied before any Assault takes place, and the formation must keep unit coherency as it moves.
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zombocom
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:04 am 
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Not sure +1 to engage is needed, since if they fail to engage... they'll engage anyway :)

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 5:15 am 
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Good point Zombo.

Also if anyone can point me to the stats for the Blood Slaughterer I'd be very appreciative as I'm not on Warseer and the search function comes up blank. Also what should we set it as points-wise and should it be an upgrade or a support formation? Also this applies to the Scorpion too - support or upgrade?

Views wanted  :agree:

Cheers all
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 6:52 am 
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Here's a quick WIP change to the WE list. THIS IS NOT A FINAL DOCUMENT   :;):

I've made adjustments to how you purchase berserkers and terminators and the transport upgrade

I've added Scorpions and Slaughterers to 2 areas but I want consensus on whether to have both iterations.
I need a price for the Slaughterer though.

I've dropped the daemon engines as I think the Scorp and Slaughterer will fill these roles and I don't want the list to be about just daemon engines.

Added a Battlebarge for fun to see if it's OTT or even necessary.

Reduced the Legionnaires to 4 unit formation.

Ravager went down in price as per BL playtest list.

Added harbinger and Hellblades, adjusted Helltalons price.

Changed Destroyer's cost.

Put the WE bikers into the Retinue section - zoom zoom!  :)) I figured the bikers are just berserkers on bikes but I'm not sure if they should really go into the retinue section (and be more restricted) due to what they can do speed wise etc and people wanting to take all bike armies.. I am contemplating toning down their CC stat to 3+ perhaps 4+ though to compensate for the possibility of all bike armies

Adjusted the lesser daemon names - not sure if the points are right for flesh hounds though.

Not sure if the Daemon Prince should replace a Bloodlord or the Warlord... I have it as the Warlord but I can change this if it's wrong.

Changed the names of the spacecraft to reflect what they are.

On a design note; The retinues get only 3 upgrades. This will force a player to choose wisely depending on what they want their retinues to do. e.g If you want one that mixes Terminators and berserkers you only get 2 other upgrades....  if you want a mix of troops with transport, a champion and a warlord you won't get that icon bearer... You'll also be limited with dreadclaws involved.... I designed it this way so people couldn't max out on huge formations. Hopefully I haven't missed anything in that design.


Typos anyone?? points costs need adjusting anywhere?

The rest of the stats and rules etc I'll do in the next couple of days.

cheers
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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 8:48 am 
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Quote: (Dobbsy @ 08 Jul. 2009, 06:52 )

I've dropped the daemon engines as I think the Scorp and Slaughterer will fill these roles and I don't want the list to be about just daemon engines.

NOOOOO!

:_(

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frogbear
 Post subject: The new Blood Rage....
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:12 am 
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OK

Some points to consider

If a unit wants to summon Daemons effectively, they need the following:

1. World Eaters Champion Adds a World Eaters Champion to a unit in the formation 50 points each
2. Daemonic Pact Allows the formation to summon Daemons from the Daemon Pool 25 points
3. Icon Bearer Adds an Icon Bearer to a unit in the formation 50 points

There is no chance for transports for such a unit in this case?

LatD can take Daemonic assault engines yet Khorne cannot? I know that the breass scorpions etc are the assault engines, however we are missing the following:

Cauldron of Blood, Tower of skulls, Blood Reaper and Death Dealer.

All the above were counted as part of the daemon assault engines and I for one have gone to extreme trouble to get a hold of sufficient models for a Khorne force. I would hate for these to be taken out. They are a strong part of the Khorne fluff and IMO need to remain in a World Eater list.

Also, in regards to terminators. Is one upgrade counted as 1 or you can upgrade as many as you want for 1 upgrade?

In order to teleport in with the army is to upgrade with terminators (8 x 50 = 400 points + 275) which equals 675 points. That is some big points to spend on getting teleporting terminators. And that is without a chaplain!!  I would like to see a seperate Terminator unit of 4 which may be limited to 1-2 for the army. I believe that would fix this issue.

Only 1 bloodslaughterer as an upgrade choice? Would have to play it to see, however seems quite limited.

I personally do not like the Stalker as a concept. The world eaters are supposed to have the limited ability for supporting fire and air support/defence, much like the current nid 9.2.1 force. It is unnecessary and an addition that does not conform to the fluff. If anything should have AA, it would be the Lord of Battles IMO. I know that you added this in yourself, but I would ask that you step back from this as a designer and look at the fluff element. Yes it is a weakness for the army, and IMO does not need to be plugged. I believe this was discussed on other posts as not necessary.

Let us know your thoughts dobbsy.

Cheers......     :upside:




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