In the future LordI you can just us Word to save files as .rtf which pretty much anyone can read no problem.

I think Undivided CSMs don't really care what daemons answer their call, and for the most part the Black Legion is Undivided.

Specific Legions can have their specific Daemon.

One list, one lesser daemon, if you will.

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Fear is for the enemy, fear and bullets.
-James O'Barr, the Crow

General use of Daemons
In the BL, with the high strategy and initiative, I have been really using them to boost attacks first, then as formation size incrementors and finally as meat shields. The point is that with a 6-8 strong Retinue, getting three of the Lesser Daemons almost doubles their CC assaults while adding nearly 50% to the formation size which makes the Daemon enhanced Retinue a force to be reckoned with; more than compensating for the loss of TSKNF (cos you are much less likely to need it! ).

I am less sure about their use with LatD armies (not least because I have never played with them), because the lower Strategy and initiative affects the way the army works as a whole placing different emphasis on the potential use of daemons.

To the suggestions themselves:-

Presumably the intention is for the unit costs to remain as now, so 20 points for a Lesser Daemon or beast, and 100 points for a Greater Daemon?

Are Deamons still temporary? I hope so, because having them permanently in a formation that has summoned them is just OTT. So, do they get returned to the pool as usual??

I like the premis behind sacrificing units - it significantly reduces the impact of the presence of the daemons while adding colour to the rules. So I would like have sacrificing in somewhere.

Losing the Chaos Champion is a good thing IMO because of the other additional stats that become abusive. However, I must say that I quite liked using the Icon Bearer to keep the daemons in place. Perhaps for a nice twist, we could combine both concepts allowing the player to sacrifice the Icon bearer for Augment summoning or just an additional D3. That way you get more Daemons but they are then temporary
(unless you have paid for another IB   ).

However I have mixed feelings about some of the other aspects:-
• Giving everything 'Daemonic pact' actually boosts the power of all formations while making the true cost of the daemons cheaper. It also frees up one of the formation upgrade slots. Neither are good IMO
  
• Using a D6 is probably too random. I preferred The current 2D3 approach that means you are more likely to get an average number of daemons summoned to those formations that have dabbled in the black arts. However, we could add a bit more variety by adding some factors to increase or reduce the number of daemons.
  
• I really like the thoughts behind the risk of summoning failure as a curb on the BL initiative (which IMO is one of the bigger issues as you know) - but I think this would need some means of tracking failure, and for that reason it is probably less viable.
  
• I appreciate the intention to try to solve the Greater Daemon issues - finding the compromise between rarity and availability, cost and power. But on the whole I think we would do better to consider this separately.
  
• Equally I understand the move towards "bland daemons" making costing easier, but this does remove part of the 'chrome'. Again, I would suggest leaving this as a separate discussion for now until we are more comfortable with the basic concepts of their impact to the game as a whole - and especially from the perspective of all Chaos armies rather than just the BL.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Less hyperbole please. It gets tiring to see people post about things being "abusive", "broken" etc when they don't actually appear to have any concept for what abusive or broken really is.

Broken is when you end turn three with all of your formations either broken or destroyed and you haven't even been able to move into your opponents table half.

The Chaos Champion is not abusive.

If it was then it would be a no brainer addition to every formation. And it isn't.

So could we can the rhetoric please? It doesn't help and it taints your comments.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Is there anything you don't think is wrong with the CSM army?

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Can you please stop acusing everyone who disagrees with you of hyperbole? It's becoming tiresome, and you haven't once accused anyone who agrees with you of the same...

Constantly making this sort of accusation doesn't help endear others to your position.

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http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

So is listening to people using rhetorical language to drive an agenda.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Every thread seems to be degenerating into bickering. Please stay on topic, any more off topic replies or personal attacks (in any of the chaos threads) will be deleted without warning.

I like this idea as well, but I believe that daemons should be turned into an option for formations rather than a "pool" from where you can pick them off. It's even more simpler for the rules that way.

Would love to make the summoning automatic rather than using another dice. There's already enough randomness in the game and I never saw anything fun in throwing dices for the pleasure of throwing dices. Still, I like this system better than the old one (daemons keeping going in and out like yoyo game is plain stupid to me).

Thats partially my fault. I get worked up

I think we also need to keep ourselves focused on the current changes and test them and once we have solutions for what many people think are the most pressing issues then we can go back and start looking at other issues.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

I almost only ever use him for the Augment Summoning ability or if I have  50 points to spend. With the Stalker I will now be spending my points on it instead of the Chaos Champion as it has more uses.

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

As PG says, the point about the Champion is that he is needed in the current rules in order to summon a Greater Deamon. However, the stats also give him a First Strike extra attack and invulnerable save. Now, I have been bunging him in a Chosen formation along with an Icon Bearer (inv save) a Daemon Prince (inv save better armour etc) and of course Pact. What was a six strong 4+RA formation has now got two or three extra attacks and 50% have inv save - and this is without the presence of the GD and any LD.

Adding one character to a formation (or perhaps two) is fine where they provide a little additional oomph, but the combined mechanisms here are potentially doubling the power of the Chosen, and more so for Retinues.

Ok. that said, I really like the principle of augment summoning because one the one hand you get a clear mechanic that can be used to get the GD - and it can only be produced this way. It also provides the opponent with a potential means to prevent this happening - kill that particular unit and the GD is history.

IMHO the additional attacks / weapons etc are both superflous and only serve to boost the power of the formation unnecessarily.

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt

Which speaks more to it being a problem in the Terminator formation then and not a general issue.

I'd suggest that we hold off discussing him until we have vetted this current series of changes as any changes to the Summoning rules (which may involve the removal of some of these units making this issue moot

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Guns don't break formations. Blast Markers break formations.

Ok other idea:

Daemons are bought at 4-8 Lesser Daemons or 1 Greater Daemon as an Upgrade (about cost can be speculated).

They can be summoned at will. No roll is needed. Placement as in current Summoning rules.
But as with Teleport you have to roll a D6 for each Lesser Daemon and/or one D6 for each DC for the Greater Daemon. This represents the time it costs to summong the Daemons and that the Daemons have to adapt to the new environment bevor they can act.

Daemons now remain as a part of the formation until destroyed or the formation becomes broken.

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We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/

Actually I also put an IB and CC in Retinue #1 as well along with an Obliterator. That formation really shone winning several assaults despite the loss of the Champ and Obliterator - their presence (and that of the GD that would have been summoned) would have made the job even more certain (apart from totally overpowering the actual assaults )

_________________
"Play up and play the game"

Vitai lampada
Sir Hemry Newbolt