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Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
Soren
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:07 pm 
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@Hena: This will neighter change nor solve the the problem. They will stay as good as they are now due the MW Barrage Change.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 12:19 am 
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(Ginger @ Mar. 05 2008,17:33)
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Regarding Ferals and specifically the FXF Battle head in assaults, how do people find this working? What problems does it cause?

While "apparently "Fluffy", this works outside the normal assault mechanics that do not recognise fighting arcs as such - is this a good thing to be used elsewhere, or an unwanted layer of complexity that should be replaced?

Arcs in assaults make no sense. The mechanic of an assault represents a whole game of 40k, and the idea that a scout titan couldn't turn around during a game of 40k is nonsensical.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:23 am 
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(Soren @ Mar. 05 2008,15:18)
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The Feral count reminds me on the thing we had with the Marines while they took 4 Warhounds. Most lists here take 3 Ferals (which are awful MUCH better), but nobody cries about them, despite the MW templates etc?

I am wondering to be honest.

Feral Titans are probably the most complained about aspect of the list.



(Nicodemus @ Mar. 05 2008,15:39)
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Why not just replace Feral with Chaos Warhound? Maybe give him 2 optional weapon configurations?


I think the issue here is one of 'fluff'.

The black legion army list is supposed to represent a specific army (As are all Epic lists, ultimately).

Obviously the Black Legion's Titan allies have a common configuration, that being the MW barrage Feral, the light TK Ravager, and the Khorne-blessed Banelord.


The problem comes, for me, when the fluff text in the Black Legion army list says words along the lines of: 'These are the most common Chaos Titans, you can use a Banelord to represent a Warplord, a Feral to represent any Chaos Warhound, etc'.

Now that is, to me, a fudge; The most common Chaos Titans seen in all other aspects of the 40k background come with much more familar weapon loadouts.

Case in point: Chaos Warhound Titans have been repeatedly featured in 40k novels, art books, background sourcebooks, and rulebooks, over the last few years.

95% of them have been of the 'standard configuration' that we know from the loyalist lists.


Now, I'm fine with the Black Legion army list having non-standard Titan configurations... but I'd prefer it if the background text that accompanies the entries marked it as such.

For example:

'Nine Banelord Titans were seen during the 13th Black Crusade of the Black Legion, and each one of these monstrosities had been specially refitted for bombardment operations in the hope that they would crack the defence fortresses of the Cadian bastion.... although some standard configuration Titans were observed working with the Black Legion, the majority of their Titan allies were sporting non-standard (And in some cases heavily mutated) weaponry...'


That would make clear that 'Feral', 'Ravager' etc. configuration Titans are not the norm amongst Chaos as a whole, but that they are the norm amongst the allies of the Black Legion.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:44 pm 
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The Feral and Decimator issues are largely contingent on the barrage changes.  Just for the sake of discussion...

1)  If the barrage table changes at 3BP, but the MW-AP to-hit goes away, how much problem remains for these units?

2)  How much remains if the Assault Companies go to the titan/air allocation?

If both happened, would that take care of the problem?  Most of the problem?  Part of the problem?  Or have a negligible impact?

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zombocom
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:10 pm 
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The macro BP AP-to hit rules ammendment is frankly the worst idea I've heard in a long time. Macro BPs are already incredibly powerful, and the idea of making them more effective is ridiculous.

Even if that rule is removed, ferals will still be very underpriced.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:39 pm 
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Not sure Neal. I think I would probably say
1) no, MW Barrage is a huge boost
2) not really - it provides artificial limits that actually sidestep the issue.

Death Wheel, Decimator and Feral all have better firepower and general stats than their nearest equivalents (eg Eldar or IG Superheavies, Revenant titan, Warhound, Stompa etc) for similar or less costs. Limiting them by including them in the Titan / Spacecraft section is a possibility, but actually sidesteps the power issue IMHO. Really, these should all have their stats adjusted in some fashion rather than a points change IMHO; 200-300 per unit is about the right cost for these sort of items to provide a competitive number of activations overall.
  • I suspect the Decimator is considered too slow at 15 cms, so perhaps making it 20-25 cms would see more of them in play.
  • You and others have previously aluded to the power of the MW barrage. Even with the tables unchanged this is a huge boost and should possibly be dropped.
  • (As a completely different alternative, making the things "infantry killers" by defining the Barrage weapons as "Infantry MW" may be a suitable compromise that goes some way towards a solution.)
In general, many 3DC titans and WE seem a bit overpowered for various reasons but seem to prove extremely hard to correct, hence the mumerous threads and volumes of words; and IMO these beasts will prove no less hard to balance :p

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 4:43 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 06 2008,14:44)
QUOTE
1)  If the barrage table changes at 3BP, but the MW-AP to-hit goes away, how much problem remains for these units?

A lot of a problem; They're already overpowered on the current BP chart, let alone giving them AT5+, or AT4+ (If they use the MW-AP to-hit change, which I am not against in principle, as long as all units using MW BP weapons are costed appropriately).

2)  How much remains if the Assault Companies go to the titan/air allocation?


The units will remain intrinsically overpowered, and will continue to see use to the exclusion of other options in the same category.

In my opinion, moving Assault Companies to the War Engine allowance without modifying their stats will mean that all competatively-minded BL lists will be composed of three Feral Titans.

You'll never see any other unit from that allocation area again in any serious tournament-style list (Aircraft aren't needed as the BL have powerful AA).


If both happened, would that take care of the problem?  Most of the problem?  Part of the problem?  Or have a negligible impact?

I'd say that it would be a negative change rather than a positive one.

Feral Titans would remain a staple feature, other WE options would be eclipsed.

The stats / points change is the most important requirement, structure is secondary in this case.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:01 pm 
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(zombocom @ Mar. 06 2008,15:10)
QUOTE
... the idea... is nonsensical

... the idea of making them more effective is ridiculous.

Since it apparently needs repeating:
As a general note on keeping all of this civil...

It doesn't help to make hyperbolic statements.  It gets people emotional and causes hard feelings.  There's no need to be inflammatory.

The list has been official for almost a year and was out and used in tournaments in its current form for a year and a half before that.  It has been played a lot and it hasn't been ridiculous in its performance in tournaments.  It's not crushing all before it.  From the batreps and tournament rankings that I can recall, the BL list has not even done as well as the Swordwind Eldar list.

Clearly, nothing in it is "insane."  Nothing in it is a "disaster."  Using that kind of accusatory language is just going to induce defensive posturing and shut down meaningful discussion.


Please stop referring to issues with the list and others' comments or questions as "nonsensical" and "ridiculous" as well as any other similarly inflammatory terms.

I don't know why the chaos lists in particular seem to attract this sort of commentary, but I have practically begged people to stop.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:07 pm 
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E&C:  You think they are overpowered with AT6+?  Wow.  That's a major difference in our respective experiences.

I've been using the revised table and MW-AP for a couple of years and I've only found the Decimators and Ferals, hitting everything on 4+, to be overpowered but not extremely so.  Taking away the MW-AP would definitely be a downgrade from that.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:02 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 06 2008,16:01)
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Please stop referring to issues with the list and others' comments or questions as "nonsensical" and "ridiculous" as well as any other similarly inflammatory terms.

I don't know why the chaos lists in particular seem to attract this sort of commentary, but I have practically begged people to stop.

You're right, and I apologise, but the reason the chaos lists get this much verve is simply that they are now more unbalanced than any of the other official lists.

Use of such language only goes to show the depth of my feelings on the matter, and the number of people expressing similar views backs me up.

In my opinion, the macro template AP-to hit changes are wrong. I see no need for such a change in the first place, and question why this was even proposed initially.

Macro weapons are powerful, as are template weapons, and combining the two makes a very powerful weapon which should only be given to lists with extreme caution. I see no need at all for the Feral Titan or Decimator to have a macro template attack, particularly one that ignores cover as well.

To me, this is the number one issue that needs addressing with this list, and is the main cause of it feeling like a fan list rather than an official one.

With regards to "nonsensical", I stand by that comment. It does not make sense that a scout titan would not be able to turn around during the period of time covered in a game of 40k.




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Mephiston
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:58 pm 
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Again assuming the MW barrage mod is not adopted I think removing IC from the ferals would just about sort them out.

I've used decimators a resonable number of times (probably 20+ out of 40+ games) and they don't often prove a game winner. Their slow speed and relatively short range is the balanace point. If people want to drop the power of the decimator maybe change its range to 30cms to match the feral?
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pixelgeek
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:56 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 06 2008,09:08)
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I wouldn't do that. Super-Heavies are part of the normal groups in other armies as well, so don't see why it shouldn't be same for Black Legion.

It is also an attempt to make sure that the army stays true to one of the few design goals that was listed for it. That it be a horde army with lots of troops (Orks in armour).

Being able to build a WE heavy list (balance issues aside) goes against this goal

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Decimators, Ferals and Death Wheels
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:19 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 06 2008,16:07)
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E&C:  You think they are overpowered with AT6+?  Wow.  That's a major difference in our respective experiences.

I think Ferals and Decimators are slightly over-strong under stock rulebook rules, yes. Not by much, but definitely slightly stronger than their points cost would seem to afford. Of the two, the Feral is definitely the better buy, but my experience of seeing Decimators in action also leads me to believe they're slightly better than they should be under the core rules... they are perfect anti-marine tanks.

With the addition of any of the mooted mods to the core rules  as regards barage (Which I support), the Feral and Decimator move from being 'too strong' to 'broken-strong'.

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