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Black Legion rules review
BlackLegion
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:51 pm 
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My copy doesn't mention Macro-weapon either.
Which is Core-Rulebook style because the Gargants Mega Choppa CC-ExtraAttack only mentions Titan Killer too.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:54 pm 
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Hmmm. Lord I, from where did you get your copy? The official hosted copy definately doesn't have it, and that leads me to wonder whether your copy has any other differences from the SG hosted one?




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nealhunt
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 7:59 pm 
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(zombocom @ May 30 2008,19:50)
QUOTE
Jervis feels it's the other way around. Changing stats is fine, but not points costs, since that doesn't invalidate anyone's army lists.

But this isn't for JJ.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 8:03 pm 
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(nealhunt @ May 30 2008,19:59)
QUOTE

(zombocom @ May 30 2008,19:50)
QUOTE
Jervis feels it's the other way around. Changing stats is fine, but not points costs, since that doesn't invalidate anyone's army lists.

But this isn't for JJ.

Understood, but it is for tournaments.

Personally if I were writing a list of mods for tournaments they'd be entirely stat based rather than points based, because that would mean that noone would turn up to the tournament with an invalid list.

I think that tournament organisers would be much more likely to accept a list of mods to stats that didn't invalidate anyone's armies rather than points cost alterations that will invalidate existing lists.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:02 pm 
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Indeed, they'd have to hit 335 to have any affect on people's use of them..

The problem is the stats, not the points.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:18 pm 
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Zombo:  The most prolific tourney organizer in the UK has the exact opposite opinion - much better to leave people's cherished units alone.  A few minor point mods can be changed on the fly.  After all, it's not that hard to move 50 points here or there in most army lists.

Stat changes aren't out of the question, but should be used sparingly, when point changes don't suffice.

It is true i want to keep to changing points where at all possible, however that doesn't mean I'm afraid of changing rules where individuality, or restoring balance, is needed.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:26 pm 
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Could we ask the opposite question - if we removed IC or MW, (or possibly both), at what point would players stop taking Ferals at their current price of 300?? Equally, at say 350 points, or more with their existing stats, when would people start thinking of using other things??

The point I tried to make earlier is that IMO, it is better to have more, slightly weaker formations than fewer, slightly stronger ones purely because of the nature of Dice throwing and the chances involved. ?I also strongly agree that the current weaponry is just too good - as pointed out elsewhere, two Ferals can easily take apart a Leman Russ formation and against infantry based armies they are horrendous. While the 30cm range and 5+ RA does make them vulnerable, this is more than compensated for in numbers and speed (and Fearless etc)

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 10:57 pm 
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(zombocom @ May 30 2008,15:03)
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Personally if I were writing a list of mods for tournaments they'd be entirely stat based rather than points based, because that would mean that noone would turn up to the tournament with an invalid list.

Hang on, this has got me thinking. Isn't this exactly the wrong way around?

Surely if this were to be the case, you'd want to leave the points the hell alone. If your hypothetical player turns up with a pre-change list, if you tell him he needs to pay 325 points per Feral, he's going to need to re-jig his list on the fly - which may not be possible with the models he's brought to the tournament.

On the other hand, you give him a revised stat for his Feral, he can still use his army list, he just needs to adapt to the new stats.
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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:38 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 30 2008,22:57)
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Lord I: That is precisely my point. If we don't change the points and just nudge the stats then someone turning up to a tournament will have a legal list whether he knew about the changes or not.

That seems the fairest system to me.

For a full review of course it's another matter, but for a list of tournament mini-changes I really think it's the best option.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 11:39 pm 
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On the other hand, that's exactly opposite to the kind of tourney changes the main tournament organiser in the UK desires.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 1:22 am 
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(zombocom @ May 30 2008,14:54)
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Hmmm. Lord I, from where did you get your copy? The official hosted copy definately doesn't have it, and that leads me to wonder whether your copy has any other differences from the SG hosted one?

Heh. I don't know... I assumed I was running off the final copy downloaded off the SG website but obviously not. I think maybe Neal sent me a final proof? Perhaps the one on the net is not the final version. I'll delete my cookies and have a look.

Lord I: That is precisely my point. If we don't change the points and just nudge the stats then someone turning up to a tournament will have a legal list whether he knew about the changes or not.

Sorry, misred your post! ?:blush:

This only really works if no points adjustments are made at all, however. I think on this matter I'll leave it as a points increase and we can table the MW change for the full review.

There isn't anything wrong with a purely points-based change in this case. The Feral is simply a powerful unit: it should be possible to assign a points value that accurately refelects it's potential worth with the current stats.

In any case, I wouldn't get too hung up about the minimal tournie mods. I'll work out a full set of changes for playtesting prior to the full review. For non-tournament games, I anticipate you guys will be using the more exhaustive changes very soon. Games Day Baltimore is in two weeks, I'll try and have a full review list of playtest changes soon after that. In the meantime I'm going to be painting some Grey Knights! ?:D
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zombocom
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2008 3:29 am 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ May 31 2008,01:22)
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This only really works if no points adjustments are made at all, however. I think on this matter I'll leave it as a points increase and we can table the MW change for the full review.

There isn't anything wrong with a purely points-based change in this case. The Feral is simply a powerful unit: it should be possible to assign a points value that accurately refelects it's potential worth with the current stats.

Yes, my idea would only work if all army champions agreed. Perhaps I should have proposed it at the start of the month rather than the end.... I still think it's the ideal tournament solution.

Regarding the Feral, I don't think 325 points will make any difference to the tourney player, they'll still take 3. 335 is the point at which it'll make a difference, for obvious reasons.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:15 pm 
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The goal is to make it so no one shows up without knowing what's going on.  The point of having a pre-made, readily accessible mod is because it makes disseminating the information easier.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:24 pm 
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All UK tournaments require lists to be sent for checking prior to the competition. This would highlight anyone using the wrong points cost and therefore points changes are the prefered option for Matt.
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Black Legion rules review
PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:56 pm 
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Two things:

Great list of changes not too much, you have my support Lord I &,

Please don't change the Feral too much, I hate these things but they provide a useful tool for hitting entrenched infantry and force hoard armies to think more abouot placement. Ferals have done some very nasty things to my armies so they are a priority target, if they are down graded too much then the dynamics of the BL list will change.

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