Added to the discussion:
The Eldar Void Spinner
As GlynG mentioned this is being tried at a discounted price (dropping to 650 from 750pts), so this comparison might help inform the discussion as to whether the Triple Void Spinner (3VS) formation requires a price drop.
I'm repeating the first post with the new points added in Biel Tan green for easy comparing.
Ordinatus Medrengard 600ptsWE 10cm Armour 5+ CC 6+ FF 4+
Siege Cannon 60cm 9BP, Disrupt, Indirect Fire
2x Mars Bolters 30cm AP5+/AA6+
2x Lascannon 45cm AT5+
DC 4: 4 Void Shields, RA.
Critical Hit: The Ordinatus’ plasma reactor explodes in a roiling blast of energy, the war engine is destroyed and all units within 15cm suffer a hit on a 4+
Steel Legion / Minervans Artillery Company 650 points
Any nine of the following units:
Basilisk, Manticore
[] Basilisk
AV 20cm Armour 5+ CC 6+ FF5+
Earthshaker 120cm AP4+/AT4+ or 120cm 1BP, Ind
[] Manticore
AV 20cm Armour 6+ CC 6+ FF5+
Rocket Launcher
150cm 2BP, D, Ind, Slow firing
Baran Siegemasters Artillery Company 425 points
Nine Götterdämmerung Howitzers and nine Gun Emplacements
[] Götterdämmerung Howitzer
LV 0cm Armour - CC - FF 6+ Howitzer 90cm 1BP, Ind
Death Korps Artillery Support Company 600 points
Nine Earthshaker Platforms and nine of the following:
Gun Emplacements (5+ Cover Save) or Trojans
[] Earthshaker Platform
LV 0cm Armour 6+ 6+ 6+
Earthshaker 120cm AP4+/AT4+ or 120cm 1BP, Ind
Eldar: Biel Tan
3 Void Spinner Formation
WE 25cm Armour 5+ CC6+ FF5+
Void Spinner Array 60cm 3BP, Disrupt, Ind
DC3, Skimmer, Reinforced Armour. Critical Hit Effect: The unit is destroyed. All units within 5cm suffer a hit on a roll of 6+. -------------------------------------------------
Damage Output:All of the above can put out 9BP per turn .
Triple Void Spinner: also 9BP per turnSteel Legion and Minervan Artillery Companies can also be specified to use slow firing Manticores to fire 10 one turn and 8 the next, for the same 9BP average per turn.
Result: All do the same average damage per turn.
Blast MarkersKreig Earthshakers and Baran Siegemasters do not Disrupt; they will cause 2 BM on the target plus BM from units lost.
SL and Minervan Basilisks also don't have Disrupt. If using Manticores instead they will gain Disrupt, generally producing a significant amount of extra BM on top of the initial 2.
Ordinatus Medrengard has disrupt, generally producing a significant amount of extra BM.
Result: The Ordinatus is significantly better at causing BM than Krieg and Baran artillery companies, and significantly better than SL and Minervan artillery companies with Basilisks. If SL and Minervans use Manticores instead they come out slightly ahead (by 1 BM) every second turn.
Triple Void Spinner: Equal to Ordinatus, meaning considerably better than the others Resilience9 AP or AT hits are required to kill 9 Howitzers (light vehicles)
10.5 AT hits are required to kill 9 Manticores
12 AP or AT hits are required to kill 9 Earthshaker Platforms or Howitzers (light vehicles) that are in Gun Emplacements (5+ Cover)
A little over 10 AT hits are required to kill 1 Ordinatus (4 to remove Void Shields, about 6.24 to get through DC4 5+RA)
12 AT hits are required to kill 9 Basilisks
Result: The light vehicle artillery batteries are almost always going to be significantly easier to kill due to taking hits from both AP and AT weapons, and because AP weapons generally hit on lower numbers than AT weapons.
The 9 Basilisk formation (Armour 5+) require the most AT hits to kill. The Ordinatus requires about 2 less AT hits to kill, although the actual amount required may increase because the Void Shields recharge (two VS recharges would make it require about as many hits as Basilisks).
Triple Void Spinner: Requires 14 AT hits; WinnerSuppressionTheoretically:
The Ordinatus requires 4 BM to break
The Artillery formations require 9 BM to break (exception: Krieg, which can take additional LV to boost numbers but have a whole different set of AP vulnerabilities)
Triple Void Spinner: Requires 9 BM to breakIn reality:
If the Ordinatus takes 4 hits, it will be broken and lose its void shields and be broken, but take no damage.
If the Artillery Companies take 4 hits,
Basilisks would be reduced by about 3, leaving 6 survivors with 4 BM and requiring more one more hit to break.
(Note: while not broken, this formation now only has 2 models that can fire)
Manticores would be reduced by about 3.3, leaving 5.7 survivors with 3 or 4 BM and requiring more one more hit to break.
(Note: while not broken, this formation now only has 1 or 2 models that can fire)
Result: The Ordinatus is easier to suppress, but not by nearly as much as might be expected when looking at the relative size of formations.
The other formations are reduced in number as well as being suppressed.
Triple Void Spinner: If it takes 4 hits, it might lose 1 member (2.1 damage), but it is more likely to lose a member only after 5 hits (2.8 damage). Once one is destroyed, two more BM would be required to break the formation, but one member would already be suppressed so firepower would drop from 9BP to 3BP.
Result: The 3VS is as hard to suppress as the large artillery formations, and its fire power is degraded at a slower rate because it has better armour, because 3 BM are required to suppress each model and because (bar Criticals) it only losing a model after every 3rd damage point. 3VS is clearly harder to suppress than Artillery Formations.
It is harder to suppress than the Ordinatus, but its firepower is degraded at a faster rate. RegroupingThe Ordinatus regroups on a 3+ and fires at full effect (9BP Disrupt)1
A broken Basilisk formation that's been broken once may have around 5 or 6 survivors, 1 or 2 of whom will be suppressed (assuming Commissar) meaning 3BP or 4BP of firepower.
Result: A massive advantage to the Ordinatus
Triple Void Spinner: The 3VS regroups on a 4+, and will generally have lost 1 member and have 1 remaining member suppressed meaning it regroups with 3BP of firepower.InitiativeOrdinatus 1+, all others 2+
Result: Advantage to the Ordinatus; Initiative is particularly important to indirect firing units kept out of Line of Fire.
Triple Void Spinner: 3VS initiative 2+Resilience to Counter Battery Artillery fireIn the type of artillery duel common between two armies with large artillery assets:
The Ordinatus can take a maximum of 2 hits (average 1 at AT4+) from an Artillery battery that centres the template on it. It would take 2BM from basilisks, or 3BM from Manticores firing just over half their slow-fire weapons. It is likely to lose 1 Void Shield, maximum one.
The three templates fired are likely to cover about 8 members of an Artillery formation if it is spaced out well, or 9 and part of another unit if it is not. If 8 are covered, it is likely to take 2+4=6BM and lose 3 models (closer to 4 if Manticores or Howitzers), meaning that it is a very common result that the formation breaks. If unbroken, the most common result would be that only 1 gun is still available to fire (1 or 2BP)
Result: Overwhelming advantage to the Ordinatus; no artillery formation can hope to win a duel with a disrupt-artillery WE.
Triple Void Spinner: The 3VS can take a maximum of 4 hits (average 2 at AT4+) from an Artillery Battery that centres a template on one and manages to clip the other two (note that DC3 WE can be spaced widely apart to prevent this).
This is likely to cause 1 damage but has only a small chance of causing a kill. The Ordinatus would on average cause 4 BM due to Disrupt, suppressing 1 VS and reducing it to 6BP. The non-disrupt artillery formations would cause 3BP, also supressing 1 VS and reducing firepower to 6BP. Critical Hits and TK weaponsNone of the formation being reviewed can suffer additional damage from an Critical result, or take multiple hits from a TK weapon.
Result: Disadvantage for the Ordinatus
Triple Void Spinner: The 3VS can take additional damage from Crits and TKs. They are initially worse vs TKs and Crits than Ordinatus because they have no Void Shields, and later better because Crits are restricted to killing one third of their unit rather than the whole.RangeBasilisk 120/240 cm
Manticore 150/300 cm
Howitzer 90/180 cm
Ordinatus 60/120 cm
Void Spinner 60/120cmNote that the range of 120cm means that there are small areas at the edge of the opponent's deployment zone that the Ordinatus cannot reach even if placed centrally and on the 15cm line of its own deployment zone.
Result: Clear advantage to the artillery that can set up anywhere and still reach anything on the board. Disadvantage to the Ordinatus
and the Void SpinnerFF Assault The first 4 hits on the Ordinatus would be Shields, and not count for combat resolution. Once the Shield is down, 5+RA stops just over half (5/9) of the hits. It has 4 attacks at FF 4+ (2 hits).
Hits on other artillery formations generally result in kills (66% of hits on Basilisks, 83% on Manticores, 100% on Howitzers) which count towards combat resolution. They all have 9 attacks at FF6+ (1.5 hits). They should have +1 from a commissar (assuming assigned to this formation and not a casualty).
Result: Advantage to the Ordinatus
The 3VS do a total of 9 FF5+ (average 3 hits). They do not have void shields to mitigate the first FF hits, but 5+RA stops almost half the hits.
They are far more likely to outnumber their enemy than the Ordinatus, and slightly more likely than the Artillery Formations (due to taking less FF Casualties) but have no commissar. CC AssaultCC bypasses Void Shields, so hit would be against the unit's hull which count towards assault resolution. 5+RA stops just over half (5/9) of the hits. It has 4 attacks at FF 6+ (.66 hits).
Hits on other artillery formations generally result in kills (66% of hits on Basilisks, 83% on Manticores, 100% on Howitzers) which count towards combat resolution. They all have 9 attacks at CC6+ (1.5 hits), except for howitzers which are CC-. They should have +1 from a commissar (assuming assigned to this formation and not a casualty).
Result: The Ordinatus should be similar to Basilisks; The basilisks stop less hits so have more casualties for resolution, but are a larger formation and have a commissar.
The clear losers are howitzers with CC-
Void Spinner: Winner. The 3VS can force CC to become FF, a big advantage over the other artillery formations.Air AssaultThe Ordinatus has 2x AA6+
None of the other Artillery formations being reviewed have anti-air included in their cost. If taken as they come:
Result: Advantage to the Ordinatus. With two 6+ shots the chance to shoot enemy aircraft down is small, but it is guaranteed to place at least one BM on an unit doing an air assault to potentially gain 'I have no BM' and 'You have more BM' bonuses to combat resolution.
OR
SL and Minervas can add 1 or 2 hydras respectively, for 50pts each.
Result: This would make them better against air assault (Hydras are 45cm 2xAA5+ while the Ordinatus' native AA is 30cm 2xAA6+). This makes the price difference larger, but means the the category is a win to Minervans, followed by SL.
The Krieg and Baran Siegemasters artillery formations don't have access to Hydras so remain considerably worse vs Air Assault.
Void Spinner: Does not have AA.Other Weapons:Manticores and Basilisks have Heavy Bolters: 1x AP6+
Baran Howitzers have no secondary weapons
Krieg Earthshakers have no secondary weapons
The Ordinatus has 2x Mars Bolters 30cm AP5+/AA6+ and 2x Lascannon 45cm AT5+
Void Spinner: No secondary weaponsPrice:Steel Legion / Minervans Artillery Company 650pts
Death Korps 600pts
Ordinatus Medrengard 600pts
Baran Siegemasters Artillery Company 425 points
Void Spinner: 750/650 pointsResult: Clear advantage to the Baran Seigemasters, who pay considerably less than the other forces being compared.
(If anyone thinks any factors are missing or spots any mistakes please let me know, thanks)