Daemon Hordes: (1 per coven)

All Daemons in a Daemon Horde gain Teleport

Tzeentch: 9 Horrors and a Herald (char with 1 EA and Leader) for 300. 0-1 Lord of change for +150.
Khorne: 8 Bloodletters and a Herald for 275. 0-1 Bloodthirster for +150
Slaanesh: 6 Daemonettes and a Herald for 225. 0-1 Keeper of Secrets for +150
Nurgle: 7 Plaguebearers and a Herald for 250. 0-1 GUO for +150.

Fluffy and cool. Adds much needed long range punch to the army, now that all artillery (pretty much) is gone out the window.

If teleport does not work out, planetfalling gates could be tried out. Alternatively, GDs could be removed from the option.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Indeed. Why all the hostility? You mad bro?

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"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

I would just like to point out that the official LatD is not switched to experimental. If I recall things correctly, this is a spinoff to be able to field more daemon engines, which part of the community asked for.

If I am wrong, please tell me, but I think some of the heated discussion concerning this list is due to a different view on the list.

Having sorted that out, I would certainly address the possibility of WE spam. A simple 1/3 cap would probably do well to begin with.

I would also look into the possiblity of adding Rough Rider and Sentinel equivalents (Blight Drones, Pleasure Seekers etc)

Khorne: Juggernauts or Brass Scorpions
Nurgle: Blight Drones
Slaanesh: Pleasure Seekers
Tzeentch: Disc Riders

If you wanted, you could also look into the former experimental daemons: Flesh Hounds, Horrors, Nurglings, those Slaanesh spawns I do not remember the name of.

/Fredmans

Most of these already have stats / formations in the Daemon World list.

Oh and thanks for the hat tip LordotMilk...

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Chaos marines are clearly better than any infantry Latd can field, BL could field 6 fearless init 1 strat 4 WEs which was overpowered and not fun to play against, with other needs (scouts/SC/AA/speed) all covered. Everywhere except Switzerland.

Questors - if an opponent allows a Questor to move up and then sustain the next turn he clearly needs more practice. Even IF somehow incompetence/luck allowed it to happen I cannot see how it would wipe out a uge Ork infantry formation in cover - which infantry should be. If you allow them to do exactly what they want to do they are very good but that is very rare and very difficult to do - much like Vultures, Terminators, Deathstrikes, etc, etc


LoB - good stats on paper, in game very difficult to use as its vulnerable against shooty armies and only excels at CC which is difficult to get into with a strat 2 army

Hellfire - similar to LoB, looks awesome but can easily be mitigated by objective placement and vulnerable to WEs

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If you want to start getting offensive we can all play

Dptdexys have their own opinions and are certainly not part of a united EUK position, to suggest that is idiotic and paranoid. Last time I checked anybody could post on this forum.

LatD list is remaining Approved, Mike has kindly volunteered to look at different directions for the list. If this goes well they can replace or be added to the existing list, if not then no problem. No need to start getting rufe about EUK lists, which work for growing in popularity EUK tournaments

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Questor - all you've done is remove shields and reduce range. I've never seen it dominate as a FF unit due to its strategy rating and support formations. Even in EC for it to be good in FF assaults it needs lots of support otherwise its still only 3 dice on 3s, can't see how that is dominating. I don't see its problem - its good at AP shooting, decent FF. Not overpowered.

Subjagator - I've seen taken more as you are getting a 225pt fast fearless WE which gets it taken even though it never gets to perform its niche of WE CC on WE. It needs no help when in CC with other WEs. Your stats make it good at everything and I can't see why you would ever not take it over the Questor.

IMO you stats make no difference to the Questors strength (AP shooting) and nerf something that wasn't a problem, the Subjagator gets help in something it already excels at (when allowed to) and made into an all-rounder.

Lack of shields is another factor, I'd suggest most armies would shoot and break them at every opportunity. That's only a feeling though as its not based on TESTING.

Knights - not seen problems with the current stats really, they are good at shooting but vulnerable (As you've said) In my experience one solves any problems with the other and they are a regular choice.

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Not against this but it would be a MASSIVE boost to the army

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While I'm not going to address everything posted here I will address the following points:

1) As far as I'm aware, all Deamonic Engine stats are identical to the original the Lost And the Damned list published by games Workshop and are certainly identical to those found in the current NetEA approved list. Wanting to investigate potential stat changes is understandable and doing so in an experimental list is sensible, but they've been the same stats for 10 years and have never seemed to draw any ire.

2) Usage cases presented my lordofmilk always seem unbelievable as they combine statements of overpowered performance with no actual statistical or experience based evidence and seem to run counter to actual in game experiences.

For instance,



shooting on advance at a huge ork formation (assuming infantry are in cover which would be the vast majority of cases) leads to:

6 x 4+ castegator shots (3 hits average) and 2 x 5+ Battlecannon shots (1 hit average)

4 hits (being generous with the battlecannon shooting. Huge mobs have 6 grotz standard; most likely outcome 4 dead grotz if cover is battlewagons, 3 dead if cover is light, 2 dead if cover is heavy. One blast marker for the formation

Second turn, sustaining at previously shot 'uge mob

6 x 3+ castigator shots (4 hits average) and 2 x 4+ Battlecannon shots (1 hit average)

Assuming remaining 2 grotz are out of position to take hits, that would be 5 hits on boyz, most likely outcome 4-5 dead if cover is battlewagons, 3-4 if cover is light, 2-3 if cover is heavy.

Net result is 5 dead orks, 4 dead grotz and maybe 7 blast markers on a formation with 19 infantry and possibly 12 armoured vehicles left.

Same setup, target now a 'uge Kult of Speed: 5 hits first turn (1-2 saved) 7 hits second turn (2 saved): Net result 10 killed but unbroken.

Even leaving aside the perfect set up and outcome for the Questor (situations like this, whilst possible, are very much not the norm and so shouldn't be used for balance purposes) lordofmilk's vague assertions that Questors will kill even huge ork formations sound wrong from experience and are provably hyperbole at best.

3) The initial remit for this list was removal of all traitor guard units in favor of relaxation of restriction on Daemonic Engine formations. this list accomplishes that and should be tested as is first before identifying any potentially under or over powered units. Again, these stats are the same as the initial Lost and the Damned list which is a decade old.

4) DC2 Slaaneshi Knights as a specific case: Whilst I do think Knights of all stripes are large enough to probably warrant being a DC2 War engine, the stats as proposed are drastically undercosted; they cost the same as a Land raider yet are substantially faster, almost twice as resilient, massively better in assault, fearless, walkers and with equivalent or slightly worse shooting. To playtest them I'd have to double their points cost and, as I said, I'd like to get quite a few games with the list as-is first.

Somewhere in the spur of the moment the hat was not tipped. I apologize. Both the formation comp of daemon hordes and the teleporting idea has come directly from your list Novemberterrain. List that I have played a couple times with much pleasure, and where teleporting daemons were actually not only fun, but surprisingly not unbalanced per se.

So, tip of the hat to Novemberterrain.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Are you referring to CaptPietts stats or the above proposed stats for Knights?

Concerning Questor strength, I don't think I need to insist more, as I have already stated my case (coming from experience mind you). Obviously 8 shots x2 cannot kill 30 units. But multiple Questors have multiple times that firepower.

Also, perhaps you have found that in experience Ork players like to get their grots shot down by shooting attacks, however we find that Grots are best kept alive for usage in assaults, and therefore orks bear the brunt of shooting attacks.

Finally, I don't see why you would state that my posts are not substantiated by experience. At best, your experience is different.

My biggest issues with Slaanesh Titans is that their shields and range of battlecannons are an oddity (fluffwise and battlefield role wise), their price is too low and they shouldnt be taken as singles.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am glad someone is tackling this list. I am just hoping that something a bit more flavourful than just a rinced down list comes out of of the process.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

That's how it appears when the opinions presented are nonsensical eg. a questor sustaining and destroying a uge Ork formation. You clearly stated this as an example to show they are overpowered and are now backtracking when called out on it. Multiple questers sustaining on a uge ork formation now
So 550+ plus points sustaining on the formation 1) why would the ork player ever let that happen 2) why is it problematic if 2 formations doing exactly what they are best at kills a formation of similar cost?

I've never seen battlecannons have a great effect other than the odd 1st turn long-range shot

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With your concerns about the firepower of Questors why do you suggest giving each one 2 extra shots at 50 points cheaper cost. I know your recommending dropping shields and weapon range but with the speed of the Titan range won't be a problem, shields will.

I'm going to reply to LoM again, but am concious this risks being perceived as turning into some kind of group hazing. It's not.

Yes, you really do need to insist more; you haven't provided any concrete experiences to back up your concerns and the analysis (kill a huge mob) is provably false. this is in no way the level of evidence we should be working to. If you have concrete examples, present them here with as much ancillary evidence as possible (full batreps are really needed to judge a formations potential effects) rather than vague assertions.

Regarding the Daemon formations; I really like that idea but I worry what it would do to this list. At the very least, the Daemon Engine formations would once again have to be limited to one per core formation which seems silly as the stated goal of the list is to allow for more use for said formations.