I may be mistaken but I think the core/elite/support idea started here.... but I could be wrong

The change in structure had nothing to do with the EUK lists which came about 6 months after the change. I don't think having to choose only 2 or 3 out of terminators/scouts/decimators is overly restrictive and actually gives the player something to think about in picking a list rather. You can still drop pod large amounts just now it has to be at the expense of teleporting or through retinues.

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Why tighten the restrictions at all? Were there either unbalanced or un-flavorful armies that were using too many of the elite formations? What "no brainer" lists are you concerned about and how does this change stop them?

To me, the Black Legion army formula will be exactly the same as before. The only difference is people will cut bike and raptor formations for Retinues to get the elite slots: Retinue + Temie/Chosen + Deathwheel/Warhound, repeat until out of points.

Didn't really enjoy facing this list - http://www.epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampio ... =48&tid=31

and this one wasn't that nice an experience either! - http://www.epic-uk.co.uk/ukepicachampio ... =48&tid=30

and if your forced to chose between termies or chosen its fine with me (and I both play with and against BL).

To make the point, I pulled lists from some of the recent batreps and tourney results. Out of 10 lists, 8 of them follow the same formula, as still allowed under the current list.
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frogbear

3 retinues, 3 elites, 2 Death Wheels (and WE heavy)

frogbear

3 retinues, 3 elites, 2 Ferals (and WE heavy)

Steve54

2 retinue, 2 elites, 2 Death Wheel

Dobbsy

3 retinues, 3 elite, 2 Death Wheels (and WE heavy)

Markconz:

Unusual as a GD summoning list.


From UK tourneys:
Steve Gullick

2 Retinue, 2 elite, 3 Ferals/Death Wheels

Mark Preston (this must be under the old list):

3 Retinues, 5 elites, 2 Deathwheels (a couple elites could be replaced with support)

Alex Cairns:

2 Retinue, 2 Elite, 4 Ferals/Death Wheels (probably one WE would be replaced with support)

David Thomas (old list):

3 Retinue, 3 elite, 3 Ferals/Death Wheels (probably one WE would be replaced with support)

Mike McGuire (old list):

This one doesn't convert readily.

Also, 3 BL lists from Into the Breach, after EUK released the BL revisions followed "The BL Formula":

Sam Dale:

3 Retinue, 3 Elite, no Wheels/Ferals, but still 2 WEs (so, a slight variation)

Kevin Bott:

3 Retinue, 3 Elite, 3 Death Wheels

Steve Gullick:

2 Retinue, 2 elite, 2 Death Wheels

That's the same list.


Why would it not be fine with you? It results in the same cookie-cutter lists.

So the change hasn't had much impact. That's good as players now have to chose between scout or teleport and the choice between wheel or feral.

All good for me as the 0-X hard limits that didn't scale with points are now a thing of the past.

Cookie cutter lists are a reality of tournament play. Everyone is there to win, not to the end of everything, but you don't pay money to set yourself up to fail! Well, I certainly have in past events, but that's just me not learning from previous mistakes.

At ITB the only lists I'd count as none cookie cutter were the marines with Warlords, as they had to many 'core' type formations that don't complement the warlord for marines.

Right. The primary impact is to cut potential variety. It's bad enough that the builds seem to be non-competitive without banning them outright.

No drop lists.
No armor lists.
No fast attack lists.

Is there really a reason these should not be strategic options for Chaos Marines? Someone ought to at least have an option to try them.


Seriously? You consider that to be substantial choice?


I think this is a worthy goal. However, the price coming with it is extreme.


Fair enough. Now defend forcing players to take the same list in every game, tourney or not.

I believe I'm to blame for Core/Elite/Support, having suggested it to Steve via PM.

Sorry. :-)


They're a reality caused by poor list design IMO.

The Ork army list, for example, generally regarded as one of the better-designed lists, lends itself to many competative styles...

...I don't disagree that the Black Legion army list has some issues that drive players towards a generally smaller variety of list styles than other lists (Even Codex Marine lists tend to see more variety), and Jervweh knows I've decried the Black Legion list as flat out badly designed over the years (Less-so these days, as my issues with the list have been, mostly, dealt with).

To introduce more variety, I'd be happy to see more variant lists rolled out.

For an armour-focused force, then an Iron Warriors list.
For a Raptors-themed list, then a Night Lords list.
Etc...

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Definately a Taccomms led change, the thread discussing it was started 27th December 2009, a certain Nealhunt even gives a degree of support , although worries about how its implemented.

Epic UK basically just followed Taccomms on this one.

Regards Drop, Armour and Fast attack lists.

They are all still perfectly possible, although with the Drop list the biggest problem is actually the space craft transport capacity not the core - elite structure.

They may however not be optimal which is why you wont see many in tournament lists.

To be fair, Steve was only following himself, there.

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True but Steve probably only propsed it for the Epic UK list because it was being implemented for the Taccomms list and it would have had less chance of being accepted into the Epic UK list if not already part of the Taccomms list.

All true, but I think my post was funnier. :-p


Overall I don't see any problem with restricting the BL list, as long as variants are rolled out to fill any gaps...

Variants thus far have tended to concentrate on which Chaos God the army list likes to worship.

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