It also represents their 'breakability' well.

The Emperor's Children are jaded and no longer feel, well, pretty much anything. They're also still organized (mostly) as a legion. They'd be hard to demoralize or dissuade, if only because nothing really bothers them that much anymore. However, they can get disorganized and distracted a-killing and a-looting and a-mutilating. And even once you reorganize them from that, they're still a little distracted...

Thus, they should be harder to break initially, but once they're broken they should be tricky to get back together and still easily 'distracted'.

ATSKNF represents that pretty well, IMO. And the "spit-in-the-eye-of-Loyalists" aspect just tickles me.

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You can argue it any way you want, try getting past Hena.... I know as I tried. If you can I'll be asking to use a modified version for my World Eaters as I proposed originally.

We could change it to ATSKS (And They Shall Know Sensation)...

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Or And They Shall Know Slaughter LOL

Dobbsy

let's make sure the rules for the World Eaters are consistent with both our lists. No need to go backwards from where we are. Indomitable has been playtested in two lists (albeit under different names - World Eaters and Death Guard), and I do not believe it is in either of our interests to cause any changes so close to Steve54 considering acceptance of the cult lists.

I gave this a bit of thought over the weekend and I think there are 2 major contributing factors to problems with all-Fearless formations:

1) Number of units.
2) Armor save.

It seems to me the majority of the complaints about all-Fearless formations doing "gamey" stuff are driven by formations with one or both of those traits. Death Guard with 3+ saves and 7 units per formation (before the mixed formations were implemented) and Thousand Sons with 4+RA and 9 units. This led to formations that the enemy just couldn't displace and gamey use of broken formations.

Typically, smaller formations have had fewer problems. For example, with Emperor's Children the introduction of the non-Fearless legionnaires was as much about low numbers of models on the board for the EC and their inability to use transport as it was all-Fearless funkiness like we normally discuss.

Based on this very rough theory, my SWAG on where you're probably looking at borderline problem formations would be something like...

4 or more units with high armor saves
6 or more units with moderate saves
8 or more units with low armor saves

I gave this a bit of thought over the weekend and I think there are 2 major contributing factors to problems with all-Fearless formations:

1) Number of units.
2) Armor save.

It seems to me the majority of the complaints about all-Fearless formations doing "gamey" stuff are driven by formations with one or both of those traits. Death Guard with 3+ saves and 7 units per formation (before the mixed formations were implemented) and Thousand Sons with 4+RA and 9 units. This led to formations that the enemy just couldn't displace and gamey use of broken formations.

Typically, smaller formations have had fewer problems. For example, with Emperor's Children the introduction of the non-Fearless legionnaires was as much about low numbers of models on the board for the EC and their inability to use transport as it was all-Fearless funkiness like we normally discuss.

Based on this very rough theory, my SWAG on where you're probably looking at borderline problem formations would be something like...

4 or more units with high armor saves
6 or more units with moderate saves
8 or more units with low armor saves

As I see it, the essential problems with Fearless are:
1. Not taking the extra casualties due to BM gained (as they ignore this)
2. Not moving outside of the 15cm when broken.

Tackle those two and you have an effective fix to Fearless IMO.

The Thousand Sons are the one Cult list that is proving to be the hardest to change.

Neal, are you going to go back to your thread and discuss things listed there? It would be good to get some followup from the guy asking the initial questions

There's going to be a fairly radical overhaul on TSons. I'm still working it through based on the stuff I picked up from A Thousand Sons.

I also agree that the cult profiles need not be exactly the same as the BL core profiles. But it would certainly be nice.

There are 4 cult marines, each with a varying claim to Fearlessness. Each one is something of a meta-analysis of the Marks of Chaos - my opinion based on older versions of 40K/Epic as well as WFB.

Khorne Bezerkers
Reason for fearlessness - frenzied (which traditionally provides a limited degree of Immunity to Psychology until beaten).
Requirement to be Fearless in Epic - medium

Plague Marines
Reason for fearlessness - generally rather gribbly (MoN has sometimes made the bearer cause Fear, which in turn makes them immune to Fear)
Requirement to be Fearless in Epic - low

Noise Marines
Reason for fearlessness - MoS has traditionally provided immunity to psychology/fearlessness. Recent 40K retcon has provided speed advantage instead, in Fantasy it provides "Always Strikes First" to daemonic elements but still immunity to Fear in mortal contigents.
Requirement to be Fearless in Epic: Medium/High - The MoS should provide "more" fearlessness than the other marks, except perhaps MoT (due to TS-specific background).

Thousand Sons
Reason for fearlessness - purely a 40K background quirk as MoT actually typically provides no benefit from psychology at all. However the Thousand Sons themselves are automata, so literally fearless, except for their sorcerous leaders.
Requirement to be Fearless in Epic - high. They require Fearlessness unless it is assumed that the Morale effects apply to the sorcerer leading each unit.

I will say it again:

40K Fearless is not Epic Fearless.

Can't wait. I have been eying off all my Tzeenth-ian minis.

Eoics interpretation iof Fearless is wrong for most of the Cult Marines.

Khorne Berzerkers:
They are nuts. They will atack anything in sight and then butcher it then move to the next target. They are so frienzeid that they don't care of their own well being. If you caught with themin combat then youhave to put them down. ALL. Or retread yourselfe. There is no other way. Khorne Berzerkers won't retreat from close combat even if they face certain death.
Eoic represenatuon would be that in assaults they won't break. Instead after resolution roll and removing extra casualties (where Khorne Berzerkers should gain armour saves against this) the assault would go on as if on a tie. Solong until the Khorne Berzerkers win or are completely destroyed.

Plague Marines:
They don't value their own lifes very much either. They see themselfes as a force. A Plague to spread which isn't allowed to be stopped. Their enhanced toughness only reinforces those beliefes. But i don't think that they would fight to the last man as those crazed Khorne Berzerkers if meeting sufficent opposing forces. They should gain some bonus to prevent easy breaking (ATSKNF?) as well as protection from hack down hits on lost assaults because they are after all highly disciplined Space Marines if somewhat stoic and reluctant to leave places they infest/hold.

Noise Marines:
Nearly as crazed as Khorne Berzerkers because they will loose it in the extasy of close quarter fighting. While Khorne Berzerkers are frenzied Noise Marines are extatic. Bets are high that they will simply miss the point where it would be wise to retreat and be hacked down. But they don't know panik. Ok they know it but they wouldn't succumb it because they will experience it as a new exciting sensation quickly replaced by a new exciting sensation. They are Space Marines but with very low discipline and immunity to sucumbing to fear. So same result as Khorne Berzerkers in assaults. No retreat. They have to beutterly destroyed.

Thousand Sons:
Well those truly know the meaning of fearlessness. They are automatons which hardly would act onit's own. Without a Sorcerer to lead them they could be given only basic orders (go down there and kill everyone in that building). Funnily enough with a Sorcerer they could break as the Sorcerer looses his nerves and retreats taking his automaton retinue with them. Without the Sorcerer the Rubric Marines would simply stay where they are and would act only defensively if anything or carry out their last order.
So witzhout a Sorcerer the Rubric Marines should be immune to breaking but can only take basic orders as Hold, Marshall, Overwatch and perhabs Advance. Perhabs they would even autoactivate every turn with the last order given before they have lost their Sorcerer. They shopuld have the Epic version of Fearless but perhabs not the unit with the Sorcerer.

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Khorne Berserkers and Emperor's Children do have a fear; they both fear the cold aka: Skalathrax

*LOL*

Personally I think people may be heading a bit far down the SM2 level for special rules here. Epic A is supposed to be streamlined game with aggregated abilities and stats.