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What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun

 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:31 pm 
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I'm talking about a special rule you slap on a game (look, I've built an alter to chaos, yes, come and stay for tea my demonic minions! - A direct quote from Angron, 1st Armageddon war), BL is talking about how he would prefer the demon rules to work.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:37 pm 
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And on top of this i support TRCs proposal because it joins in with my proposal how the rule should work  :)

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:09 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Dec. 10 2009, 04:29 )

Host
A unit with the Host special ability is possesed by a Greater Daemon.  

Yay!

Finally I have found someone with my line of thinking on that subject   :D

My question would be,is the cost of the GD reduced due to replacing a stand that you paid for?

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:16 pm 
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I answered on the thread i linked above.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:25 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Dec. 10 2009, 05:16 )

I answered on the thread i linked above.

OK. You got me. I am lazy    :;):

Thanks for that   :yay:

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:23 am 
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I have been reviewing the view on this one and was looking at the last army I took that summoned Daemons en masse (WoE vs DG - will be reported on early this week) and I noticed my force has 3 x Augment summoning guys.

So generally one would expect that 150 points would be a comparrable price as the Monolith (as that is what I will refer to it as) does not have the 3 Invulnerable saves etc lost from the individual bases. I does remain invulnerable however and it effects the whole army which means that every unit will get it.

As a comparrison, I had 9 activations and only 3 Augment Summonings. The Monolith would increase that by 300%.

As the battles got bigger (4000 points +), it would go up even more.

Just thought I would place these up here for comparrison sake.




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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:39 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Dec. 10 2009, 04:29 )

Host
A unit with the Host special ability is possesed by a Greater Daemon.  At the start of its formation’s action, before the action test dice roll is made replace the unit with the Host special ability (which now counts as destroyed but doesn't cause a Blastmarker) with a Greater Daemon from the Daemon Pool.

Been looking at this as well

To keep with the 25 point mark up of lists, I would then cost the Greater daemon at ~50 points and find ways for the Host Character (Chaos Champion) to go back to 25 points. Should not be a hard work around, even if it means a new character with no Invulnerable and just the 'Host' special ability

Quote: 

Khorne and Slaanesh (both enjoy the savagenes/beauty of close combat): Give +1 in Engage action tests.
Tzeentch and Nurgle (both have great stamina/toughness): Gives +1 on Marshall action tests.
Chaos Glory: +1 on Rally rolls


I know this is a favourite of most people, however I do not see people playtesting it and working out the problems. The initial one I find (and yes, I do have a bias), is that Khornates should never fail to charge (other than being broken via overwatch). They give up so much (army-wise) to charge and their only base instinct in battle is to close with the enemy. A failed initiative roll should be a charge with the effects of the BM taking place.

Unsure about the others.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:47 am 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 14 2009, 02:23 )

I have been reviewing the view on this one and was looking at the last army I took that summoned Daemons en masse (WoE vs DG - will be reported on early this week) and I noticed my force has 3 x Augment summoning guys.

So generally one would expect that 150 points would be a comparrable price as the Monolith (as that is what I will refer to it as) does not have the 3 Invulnerable saves etc lost from the individual bases. I does remain invulnerable however and it effects the whole army which means that every unit will get it.

Just to say augment summoning (get a greater demon) is different from demonic focus (keep demons) and is far more powerful because of that.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:15 am 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 14 2009, 14:47 )

Just to say augment summoning (get a greater demon) is different from demonic focus (keep demons) and is far more powerful because of that.

Argh

I messed up the abilities, didn't I?

Well I had 2 Daemonic Focuses. The issue remains the same however in my view. Every unit gets the ability where before, it w3as per unit that paid 50 points for the ability, + another 75 just so that individual unit could summon a GD. It is really hard to price, as the more points you play, the more impact such a monolith has...

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:13 am 
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Hence making Demonic pact in such an army 50 points as its not as good as Demonic focus, but is a boost. The ability now scales with activations.
Of course for some units its a downside (say bikes, who want flesh hounds permanently attached?). It also doesn't affect GD sumoning at all - indeed that would now cost base 175 for a 7/12 chance of summoning as opposed to 150 and you can't release the GD for a different formation to use unless you pay another 25 points.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:11 pm 
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?

Sorry. I got lost there on the points.

1. GD: How many points again by itself?
2. Extra 25 points for a GD in another formation? How?

I am not totally against the idea. Just acting as devils advocate    
:peace::devil: :peace:

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:18 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 14 2009, 11:11 )

Sorry. I got lost there on the points.

1. GD: How many points again by itself?
2. Extra 25 points for a GD in another formation? How?

Currently you need 25 demonic pact, 50 points augment summoning, 75 points for a GD (150 total) and you get a 58% chance of summoning it (needing 7 to summon).

So under this system the cost wouldn't change but now it would remain with you until you break or it dies.

If you cost Demonic pact at 50 points to account for the hanging around ability/disadvantage it would now cost 25 points more, or 175 points to have a 58% chance of summoning it.

This value would change on the demon and the formation, for Khornite GD's are fast and can go with anything, Nurgle is a bit slow and so on.

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:24 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 14 2009, 20:18 )

If you cost Demonic pact at 50 points to account for the hanging around ability/disadvantage

Hahaha

I would not call it a disadvantage. My termies would love the OLD big boy to stick around.

It would be  :sign1:

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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:22 pm 
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Ah but would your termies not prefer an invulnerable save and another leader in the formation?

So for those 42% of time you fail to summon the demon, at least you get to rally well with your survivors :)




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 Post subject: What do you think the value of Demon hanging aroun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:42 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 14 2009, 03:39 )

Quote: 

Khorne and Slaanesh (both enjoy the savagenes/beauty of close combat): Give +1 in Engage action tests.
Tzeentch and Nurgle (both have great stamina/toughness): Gives +1 on Marshall action tests.
Chaos Glory: +1 on Rally rolls


I know this is a favourite of most people, however I do not see people playtesting it and working out the problems. The initial one I find (and yes, I do have a bias), is that Khornates should never fail to charge (other than being broken via overwatch). They give up so much (army-wise) to charge and their only base instinct in battle is to close with the enemy. A failed initiative roll should be a charge with the effects of the BM taking place.

Unsure about the others.

Those action test modifiers are only intended for non-Cult armies like Black Legion and Red Corsairs as replacement for the current Factions rule.

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